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APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
February  13, 1991  10 PM  ET
Topic:  MIDI synth/synthLAB - How to use it and why
Forum Leader:  Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM),
Forum Assistant:  Gene Koh (AFA Gene)
Forum Consultants:  Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt
(AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS)
Copyright (c) 1991 America Online
All Rights Reserved
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AFL JoyceM Okay, let's get started.  First of all for those
           of you who are new here, please read the Hot Shot
           in the above menu - some hints/secrets are there
           for tonights chat. AFC Eddie talked with Bill
           Basham this past week, and I would like him to
           share with you some of the comments Bill
           had....Ed?

AFC Eddie  Thanks, Joyce..

AFC Eddie  Spoke with Bill a couple of days ago, and the
           good news is...He will finally be able to get
           back to upgrading Diversitune for us!  Looks like
           two new important features: One will be a module
           to allow you to create your own Diversitune
           instruments!  The other will be the capability to
           save songs in standard MIDI format.  This is
           especially good news, in that other programs
           which recognize this format, such as
           Mastertracks, Musicwriter and others, will be
           able to be used in conjunction with Diversitune!

ELECTMUSIC Eddie... how about loading songs into DTunes from
           the MIDI File Format?

AFC Eddie  Bill didn't think that one was do-able at this
           time, Greg.  But we can always twist his arm some
           more!

ELECTMUSIC Too Bad Ed, cause we really need the editing tool
           from MTPro to make DTunes workable.

AFL JoyceM Ed, thanks for the news - Good news at that!  I
           would suggest that we all write to Bill about our
           wishes and desires.

AFC Eddie  Greg, don't forget, there is a lot of editing
           capability in Dtune.

Yori       I am really interested in using SL or DT tunes
           behind a slide show.

ELECTMUSIC Just punch in and punch out.... right ?

AFC Eddie  No, Greg, there's also the ability to erase
           individual notes, overdub, and more.

AFA Gene   A combination with something such as ClipTunes
           from Triad Venture which allows MIDI Synth
           sequences to be played in the background.

ELECTMUSIC Yea, that's right... it's been along time since I
           worked with it.

AFL Marty  Either of those could be used to make a great
           slide show with music playing in the background
           (with ClipTunes)>

AFA Gene   Yep, even an "interactive" slide show if you wish
           - with hypermedia it is easy.

AFL JoyceM Okay, the other comment I have is to quote from
           the MIDI synth manual - for those of you who are
           having problems.  Our discussion tonight is on
           synthLAB...and MIDI synth.  Let me quote from the
           manual first....then we can continue our
           discussion.  An application which uses this tool
           can not use the AppleTalk port, support  'system
           beep' inits Sequencer (Tool 26) or Note
           Synthesizer (Tool 25) while this tool is active.
           I know that some of you have had problems with
           sys beep.  Done.

AFC Eddie  Thanks, Joyce, I know that was tough, but we got
           it.

AFA Gene   Just a sidenote, I've also noticed that
           MasterTracks doesn't work with SysBeep either.

AFL JoyceM We will be discussing the Hypermedias next week,
           but slide shows sounds interesting.

ELECTMUSIC The tunes from SLab do not take up much disk or
           memory space.

AFC Eddie  Gene, Mastertracks won't work with any sysbeep
           init.

AFL JoyceM I think interrupts are the problems here.  I note
           that Floyd's File Tools won't  work with any MIDI
           input.  Even his revised version.

AFA Gene   I know, Ed, I tried... I like to keep the GS
           volume at the max for MT so that the "clicks"
           will come out loud enough, but then the stnd beep
           is way too loud  - so my solution was to use the
           IIe-beep INIT.

Mr Toaster Oh, I finally got my SL Player NDA to work, but
           now it's doing skwewy stuff on me.

ELECTMUSIC While digitized sounds/music roughly use up 10k
           for each second of sound

TerryB53   Is there a forum for beginners in Apple II music?

AFC Eddie  This is it, Terry!

AFL Marty  I've heard of some folks having problems with one
           of synthlab's error messages.  In some cases it
           says that you can't have AppleTalk installed.
           The problem is that these folks don't have
           AppleTalk at all.

AFL JoyceM Marty, that is what the manual says....they must
           disable it.

Mr Toaster Terry, if you want, I'll talk to you in a private
           chat room.

AFL JoyceM I have AppleTalk on my HD and have no problems.

AFC Eddie  But it's not active, right Joyce?

AFL JoyceM No, it's not active.

Mr Toaster I was a beginner at AMS for a while, but I'm much
           better now.

TerryB53   It doesn't look that way most of you seem to know
           what you are talking about and I don't understand
           a word your saying.

AFL Marty  I didn't make myself clear.  They don't have
           AppleTalk active.  They don't have AppleTalk.
           But the message persists.

AFL JoyceM Terry, what can we help you with?

AFC Eddie  Hmmmmmmmmmm.

ELECTMUSIC Terry... it just appears that way... we put on a
           good front... for the powers that be

AFL JoyceM Marty, I have asked Mark Cecys to come to our SL
           chats, but he has been unable  to attend.  I will
           give him those messages and see what he has to
           say.

AFC Eddie  Yeah, Terry, I can't tell a note from a boat!

Mr Toaster Joyce, could I make a private chat room from
           here, or do I have to go to people connection?

AFL Marty  The problem seems to be related to having a
           printer attached to the GS and leaving it off.
           It usually disappears when you turn the printer
           on.

ELECTMUSIC Thanks Gene

AFC Eddie  I always use SLab with printer off.

TerryB53   I keep seeing things for IIGS music but I can't
           tell where to start.

AFL Marty  I don't know the answer... I'm just reporting
           what I know.

AFL JoyceM Toaster, you have to go to PC and set up a
           private room.

Mr Toaster Okay.

AFC Eddie  Terry, do you have any music software?

AFA Gene   Terry, our forum will take you from the
           beginner's stage to the professional stage. Any
           question on your mind, just ask.

ELECTMUSIC But before you go.....

TerryB53   MIDI,Sonic Blaster, Audio Animator, synth,
           soundmaster.  Where do you start and what with?

AFC Eddie  Have you done any songs on your audio animator
           software yet, Terry?

AFL Marty  (It's a problem only with -some- GS's Eddie)

AFC Eddie  OK, thanks, Marty. GS's are crazy stuff!

AFC JohnC  SynthLab works fine for me with the printer on.
           I just wish I knew what I was doing....any
           documents?

AFL JoyceM Terry, what is it that you want to do with
           music/sound?

TerryB53   I don't have any software those are just some the
           things I have seen

AFL JoyceM Terry, what is your ultimate goal with
           music/sound?

LDavison   SynthLab can be downloaded from the library in
           this forum.

ALBIE3     Is anything happening here? I see names but no
           conversing.

AFL JoyceM John, documents for what?

AFC JohnC  SynthLab

TerryB53   I would like to just play around with it.

AFL JoyceM John, only from APDA.

Mr Toaster Terry, shall we talk?

AFL JoyceM Terry, I would suggest then you download
           SoundSmith and some of the songs that  go with
           it....great sounds and there are instructions on
           how to create your own.

TerryB53   Yes, Where at?

AFA Gene   Terry: okay, let's see what we have here:

AFL Marty  AudioZap is a good program to start with if you
           want to fool around with digitized sound.

FredChopin What does APDA stand for?

AFL JoyceM Right, Marty - a new AudioZap is now available
           too.

AFL Marty  Apple Program Developers Association

AFA Gene   MIDI, synthLAB: these two are your MIDI
           applications. Audio Animator can also be used
           with MIDI, but that's only 1/2 of it's power. To
           use either of these MIDI applications effectively
           you must have a MIDI keyboard. SynthLAB also  has
           the ability to play back through the GS's Ensoniq
           chip (quite well, I might  add). Next:
           Soundmaster, Audio Animator, Sonic Blaster: these
           are your sound digitizing applications. This is a
           totally different entity, separate and apart from
           MIDI music. Sound Digitizing is the "recording"
           of live input, whether it be from a microphone, a
           CD player, etc. With the five applications that
           you mentioned you own, that's what you have.
           Does this help any?

AFC JohnC  Do you have APDA's phone?

AFL Marty  800-282-2732.  MIDISynth Product number is
           A0250LL/A

TerryB53   Do I have to have anything but my GS?

AFL JoyceM Thanks, Marty (quick draw Marty).  BTW, you do
           have to be a member of of APDA - $20 per year.

ALBIE3     I have downloaded SynthLab and played some with
           it.  How does one get the instruments for each
           song loaded?

AFC Eddie  Albie, you can download those too, from the
           library.

GS Jim     Hiya, Joyce!  Hi all...  just visiting for a few
           minutes... darned toll calls.  :)

AFL JoyceM Jim, where are you calling from?

GS Jim     I live in Wells River, Vermont, now...  And the
           nearest node is 30 miles  away....   and there
           isn't a single node over 1200 in Vermont. :(

LDavison   (HyperStudio has a sound digitizing utility
           program too.)

TerryB53   I don't have any of it I want to know what I need
           to get started.

FredChopin Is there a certain version of GS/OS that you
           should use with AA?  because when I try to
           digitize somthing it crashes into the monitor!

AFA Gene   Oh! I see.... so currently, you have nothing?

AFC Eddie  Should work with the latest version, Fred!

AFL Marty  Do you want to record, play, or both Terry?

ELECTMUSIC Fred, I haven't had any problem with 5.02, upto
           5.04.

AFL JoyceM Terry, getting started doing what with
           music/sound?

AFA Gene   geez! he left!

GS Jim     I use it with the 5.03 with no problem...  once I
           got the drivers all loaded.

ELECTMUSIC which version of GSOS

FredChopin I am using 5.04

AFL JoyceM I had no problems with 5.03 or 5.04.

ELECTMUSIC Should work

AFC Eddie  What DA's do you use, Fred?

GS Jim     er...  I lied...  I am using 5.04.  :)

FredChopin DA?

AFC Eddie  Desk accessories, Fred.

FredChopin I am using the SynthLAB DA only

AFL JoyceM No NDA's or CDA's? SysBeep, etc?

AFC Eddie  I would suggest de-activating it, and any Init
           files you may be using, then  reboot and try
           again.

ELECTMUSIC Should still work

FredChopin I will try that

GS Jim     After a lot of communicating with Parik, I ended
           up having a special disk set aside for the
           SynthLab DA.  It seems my hard drive and the DA
           don't like each other.

ELECTMUSIC Fred... did it work from your hard drive before
           5.04?

AFL Marty  I should think you'd have a headache. :)

FredChopin yes

AFL Marty  (j/k Parik... wherever you are :)

FredChopin yes it did Greg

AFL JoyceM Jim, what HD are you using?

GS Jim     I have a CMS 42 meg.  and the stupid CMS SCSI
           card stinks - it's incompatible with lots of
           stuff...  especially my transwarp.  :(

ELECTMUSIC Is the SLab DA the latest version?

AFC Eddie  Jim, I use that card with Transwarp!

AFL JoyceM Strange!  Why not use the RAMFast card - no
           incompability problems :)

GS Jim     Well...  it's funny...  the card works on my
           friend's computer and with the  transwarp, but
           not with my computer with the transwarp -
           Transwarp works fine without the SCSI card on
           there, and the SCSI works fine without the
           Transwarp on there, but the two aren't compatible
           on my computer.

AFC Eddie  Is it the latest one from CMS (March, 90)?

AFL Marty  GS's are funny that way Jim.

AFC Eddie  I used to have that problem, Jim, til I got a new
           motherboard.

GS Jim     Ack!!!!  I can't afford a new motherboard!

AFC Eddie  Sorry...May also be power supply.

AFL JoyceM Jim a ROM 1 or 3 GS?

GS Jim     Hmmm... I'll have to borrow somebody's power
           supply.  My computer is full of cards.  I have
           the Rom 01....  my friend's computer was the 03.

AFL Marty  That could be part of the problem Jim.

AFL JoyceM I belive that Apple has put out a notice on those
           Power Supplies - I will try  to find it and post
           it.

GS Jim     That's what I was thinking...  the other thing
           was that I have an overlay card in slot 3 of my
           computer which means the Transwarp has to go in
           slot 4.  I put the transwarp in slot 3 of my
           friend's computer.

AFC Eddie  TW should work in 4, Jim.

GS Jim     Well, it does when I don't have my SCSI card in
           the computer. :)

ELECTMUSIC Joyce... here's the big SynthLab question for the
           evening:  How is it possible to fit several
           different drum instruments into ONE Drum Kit
           instrument in synthLab (I know I ask that
           question before).

AFL JoyceM Hmmmm...same question as last week - and still no
           solution, Greg?

AFA Gene   Greg: I think the answer to that question can be
           found by asking, "how is it possible to fit
           several different drum insts into one drum kit on
           ANY synth" -

AFC Eddie  Yes, but this is synthLAB week!

ELECTMUSIC Geez, I gave you all time to figure it out :)

AFA Gene   I do not know of any synth that will let you do
           this.

AFL Marty  How do you know it can be done?

AFC Eddie  The answer to Gene's question is that each drum
           is set to  a different frequency.  I don't think
           that answers

AFL JoyceM Greg, I will add that to my list of questions to
           Mark Cecys :)

AFA Gene   No, I don't mean _how_ the drumkit idea works...
           i mean, do you know of any  synth that will let
           you create your own drumkits as greg wants to do
           in  SLab? I can't think of one.

ELECTMUSIC It's almost like a keyboard split

AFL JoyceM So far no one has said the secret words :) to win
           FREE online hour(s)!

GS Jim     Now...  if you could only award free long
           distance time.  :)

AFC Eddie  Neither can I, Gene.

AFA Gene   So it only follows this this procedure must be
           extremely hard, i.e. can only be done in the
           factory.  "factory" = mark cecys? :)

AFL Marty  I take it you have seen this done someplace?

Norman LJ  Will the sequencer work with digitized sounds
           also?  or only synthesized ones.

ELECTMUSIC SynthLab comes with three drum kits, from the
           factory... that is.

AFA Gene   Norman: you mean MIDI Synth/SynthLAB?  It's a
           combination of both digitzied and synthesized
           sounds.

Norman LJ  OH, ok

AFA Gene   I think the only way we're gonna get a
           satisfactory answer is by asking Mark directly.
           One would think that since no other synth can do
           it (drumkits), why should MIDI Synth be able to
           do it? --- but then, one notes that MIDI Synth
           runs on a computer, not on a keyboard, so there
           are many more possibilities.

AFC Eddie  I think Gene is right.  Parik might also know.

ELECTMUSIC Joyce... that is the question I have been meaning
           to EMail you....:)

AFL JoyceM Okay, Greg....I have it and will call Mark
           (again) with those questions.

AFL JoyceM I have a questions about channels and tracks.

Norman LJ  How can I put in digitized sounds in as an
           instrument.

AFA Gene   Currently, that is not possible, Norman, but in
           the VERY near future, it will be via a custom
           wavebank creator.  (the program is currently in
           beta testing)

ELECTMUSIC Creator/Editor

AFL JoyceM Also, MIDImate will or should be released this
           weekend in AMS.

AFC Eddie  Great!

Norman LJ  what is MIDImate?

AFL JoyceM Shareware.

ELECTMUSIC Joyce... will that be a new version and will it
           be shareware?

AFC Eddie  MIDImate converts standard MIDI files to SLab
           sequences.

AFL JoyceM Same version, Greg and shareware.

ELECTMUSIC Costs...?

AFL JoyceM Lindsay didn't know when I talked with him but
           probably $10.

AFA Gene   Norman, so ultimately it means that u can write a
           song in MasterTracks using the fancy editing
           tools, then port it over to synthLAB.

Norman LJ  cool.

AFL JoyceM Works real smooth too :)

Norman LJ  Do we have a wave/bank editor yet?

AFC Eddie  We will soon, Norman.

AFL JoyceM What is the difference between a channel and a
           track and how are each used?  (owner of a new
           real MIDI keyboard and terms are tough)

AFC Eddie  Well, Channels are used to convey MIDI
           information on a single instrument, and may be
           recorded onto tracks (I assume you mean tracks in
           MTPro, right?)

AFL JoyceM Yes, Ed.

AFC Eddie  Each track, tho, can handle MIDI info from one or
           more MIDI channels.  When you record onto MTPro
           with the GS, you can only record 1 track at a
           time.

ELECTMUSIC Channels are for the transmission of MIDI data
           and tracks are for the recording and playong back
           of MIDI data.

AFC Eddie  Even tho you may be recording from a number of
           MIDI channels.  After you record your data onto a
           single MTPRo track, you can then  separate the
           info onto several tracks using the Strip Data
           feature of MTPRo.

AFL JoyceM Why, then, do you set to different channels or
           should you?

AFC Eddie  You should use a different Channel for each
           instrument, so they can be  edited separately.

AFL JoyceM Oh.....thanks, Ed....must re-read that manual :)

ELECTMUSIC You don't have to, it depends upon your
           application.

AFL JoyceM I see....so nice to have people explain it better
           and easier than the manuals - Thanks, guys :)

AFC Eddie  Some people use several channels for different
           notes for more editing ability.   For instance,
           some people use a different channel for each drum
           in a kit.

ELECTMUSIC For layered instruments you would set the same
           MIDI channels.

Norman LJ  What's the maximimum number of notes or voices
           that can be played at once.

ELECTMUSIC In SLab?

Norman LJ  yes.

ELECTMUSIC 7 or 8 , I can't remember which

AFC Eddie  SLab has 8 tracks, each can have a separate
           instrument.

ELECTMUSIC Interesting algorhythm that steals voices as its
           needed

Norman LJ  What happens when more is put in... error
           message?

ELECTMUSIC See above

ELECTMUSIC Slab begs borrow and steals its voicing - No
           error messages necessary

AFL JoyceM Did that help, Norman?

AFL JoyceM BTW, Norman, you came quite close to one of the
           secret words, so I will give you one FREE hour of
           connect time :)

Norman LJ  Great.

Andy Stein Have all the secret word sbeen guessed, yet?
           Ther're still hours?!?

AFL JoyceM Our pleasure:)

AFC Eddie  One left, andy

AFC Eddie  Must be in sentence form.

ELECTMUSIC For those interested: My arrangement of Birdland
           has just been released for synthLAB.

AFC Eddie  Great, Greg!

Norman LJ  But does it mean that if you try and play more
           than 8 notes, then it will somehow find a way to
           play them?

ELECTMUSIC Yes, It will not let  some note be sustained so
           that it can allow for the introduction of the
           additional notes.

Norman LJ  How does it pick which note?  I see.

ELECTMUSIC I am not sure, but I would guess in the order of
           time.  So a note sustaining for the longest
           period of time would be cut first.  It works
           well, except if you go over board ,ie. chords
           arranged with many notes played at the same time
           might cause some interesting musical effects.

Norman LJ  How many can MTpro handle?

ELECTMUSIC Norman... MTPro is a sequencing program that will
           handle as many notes as there is memory for, but
           it does contain 64 tracks.  For all practical
           purposes, its limitless.  Keep in mind you will
           need synthesizers to play all those note, and you
           have 16 MIDI channels to work from

Norman LJ  Can synthLAB/MIDISynth handle really heavy fast
           paced music without getting bogged down?

Andy Stein Is it possible to adapt Background Sound CDA to
           play Diversi-Tune songs, since it recognizes them
           in the file names, and the documentation claims
           that it supports the songs?

AFL JoyceM Andy, you might want to leave a message in our
           Let's Discuss area about that, so that Parik can
           answer it.

Andy Stein I'd think so, Noramn, since the Ensoniq chip
           handles most of the work.

Andy Stein Good idea, Joyce.

ELECTMUSIC I think the only way SLab gets bogged down, is if
           you are working on very thick chords, that use up
           the 8 notes... then the program seems to produce
           some strange result during the preformance of the
           sequence.

AFL JoyceM synthLAB and MIDI synth are the true names, we
           just abbreviate it. :)

Andy Stein Remember, this is a beta version of SynthLAB.

AFL JoyceM I hate to call this chat to and end but it is
           late and I have some AFL work to do.

Norman LJ  I noticed that the Dragon Wars demo slowed down a
           bit when playing music.

ELECTMUSIC Andy, I wonder if this will be the only version?

AFL JoyceM Norman, if you have more questions we are here
           weekly and we also have a Let's Discuss area that
           can be of help to you too.

Andy Stein Yes, I'll have a SLab of beats.

ELECTMUSIC (Graphics can slow it down)

Andy Stein I hope not.

Andy Stein What was the secret word? :)

AFL JoyceM Greg, my thoughts to re this being the only
           version!

ELECTMUSIC (then use a transwarp to compensate)

AFL JoyceM Secret words were:  SEQUENCE and TRACK.  Both
           refer to synthLAB :)

AFL JoyceM Night all and thanks for coming.  Next week is
           Hypermedia:  HyperCard IIGS and HyperStudio.


America Online - 1991.