=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG March 4, 1992 10 PM ET Topic: MIDI - Do We Really Need It? Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM), Forum Assistant: Gene Koh (AFA Gene) Forum Consultants: Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt (AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS) Copyright (c) 1992 America Online All Rights Reserved =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- AFC Eddie As most Apple II users are aware, MIDI is that wonderful way that computers and musical instruments have to communicate with each other. All you need is a computer (the GS is great!), a MIDI interface to connect it with, and a MIDI musical device, like a MIDI keyboard, guitar, or even a MIDI wind instrument. Oh yeah... You'll also need software! But with that combination of elements, the creative potential is endless! You can use your setup to create computerized musical recordings (sequences) that you can edit with far greater accuracy than any tape recording, and even play back at different speeds without changing the pitch! So, beginners can record real slow and play back at a higher speed! With sequencing programs like MastertracksPro, you can edit a quarter note down to 48 parts! LindsayGS (is he doing this without a keyboard macro???) AFC Eddie Sorry, Lindsay, no macros! Just ad-libbing! And, you can play back your sequences right to your MIDI device and hear any number of different instrument sounds! And speaking of Lindsay, he's make MIDI life for us GS users infinitely easier with two of his great creations: One is MidiMate, which will convert MIDI sequences to SynthLAB songs! Bet I've used that one more than anyone else! LindsayGS aw shucks, ed....go on.......go on...... go on.... AFC Eddie The other is SysEx for the Apple II GS (did I get the name right?). That one will save sequences and System exclusive information (like edited instrument sounds from your own synth) right to your GS! LindsayGS how's the MIDI XCMDS coming along there, Mike? Nuzz Pretty good Lindsay LindsayGS are they released? Nuzz Sure, long time ago.. AFC Eddie Well, did I do your programs justice, Lindsay, or would you like to add? LindsayGS Fine, ed - I'd be happy to answer questions, but your comments were fine. Mike, can you do all the MidiSynth commands with stacks now? Dr Who29 Is there a standard MIDI sequence file format? Nuzz Not yet Lindsay, we just play easy, but more features are coming LindsayGS sure is, Dr. W. (did you ever get Playnote to work?) Dr Who29 cool... AFC Eddie Yes, Dr Who, there are actually two MIDI sequence standards: Type1 and Type0! Nuzz yep, playnote works fine AFC Eddie Type 0 is for single track sequences, and Type 1 is for multi-track. Most often, type 1 is used. Dr Who29 Are they GS-only formats? LindsayGS they're not SUPPOSED to be for GS only, but there are a few differences in MIDI type 1 files from diff computers, mostly these are diffs in the headers. AFC Eddie No, Doc, they are universal! You can use a MIDI file from a Mac, PC, or any other platform on an Apple II! Dr Who29 Great! :) AFC Eddie Yes, but ShrinkitGS will remove a Mac Midi header, if it was compressed with stuffit! Then, just change the file type to D7/0000 and you're set! Dr Who29 Which header is this? The MacBinary one? AFC Eddie I think so, Doc. LindsayGS I didn't know that eddie - stuff people sent me wasn't shrunk! AFC Eddie For unstuffed files, there's a utility called Stripper that will get rid of the header! LindsayGS (I wrote my own stripper - never released it) AFC Eddie Leave it to you! AFC Eddie So, Ian, wanna tell us about MegaTracker and your other neat stuff? (giving you an opportunity for blatant plug) IRSMan aww, but I bet you didn't write your own .MOD player for fun :-0 Dr Who29 hehe AFC DYAJim I haven't compiled something with orca for 5 weeks. But this weekend I'll get back. IRSMan so, has anything useful and MIDI surfaced for IIgs lately or do I still have to do it myself? :) AFC Eddie Ian, it's all up to you. But I'll help! IRSMan aww, drat :) Well, James convinced me to go for 2 swap tracks :) AFC Eddie Hmmm, contemplating the Ian/Lindsay collaboration potential.... IRSMan so it'll be full MIDI/SoundSmith/more FX/and RAM-based instruments. What a combo, no? AFC Eddie Called what, Ian? IRSMan I'm currently having great fun playing FUN.Musics out thru my MIDI keyboard LindsayGS say , if there's 8 people here, 7 of you prob already have sys 6.0 so...does anybody know if 5.04 or 6.0 has any major changes in Tool 35? IRSMan Eddie: MegaTracker, subject to change if a better name shows up :) No, Lindsay. AFC DYAJim Megatracker sound so.. well. . ordinary and uninspired. just like noisetracker IRSMan no changes at all to tool035 LindsayGS in 6.0, either? AFC Eddie yes, minor changes. AFC Eddie In 6.0. SynthLAB too. LindsayGS bug fixes aside, eddie - any changes in the tool commands? IRSMan really? I had heard it was unchanged ELECTMUSIC Glad to see some interest in Midi programing for the GS.... AFC Eddie None that I know of, Lindsay. Nuzz Bug fixes only LindsayGS I was wondering if there was any reason for me to wait for 6.0 to start some things. IRSMan ehehe, MidiSynth is for wimps ;-) I'm talking directly to the *.MIDI drivers :) AFC Eddie yes, you should wait, Lindsay. New Tool 32, too. But what kind of things are you thinking about?? AFC DYAJim midi drivers have changed. Midisynth sounds freakin' awesome, IRSMan its okay AFC DYAJim Until I hear comparable quality from something else it will remain that way LindsayGS well, we can't all be gifted REAL programmers (are you one of those hardware types...?) AFC Eddie I'm with you, Jim. IRSMan James Brookes' sustaining insts being triggered by MIDI input is pretty neato Nuzz Anything that users can use easy is awesome :) IRSMan yes LindsayGS it's got lots of limitations, but it's easy to prog with and runs with a pretty small overhead (esp at 2.8 MHz) IRSMan MT you just plug and play...no annoying channels to setup :) I wouldn't call MidiSynth's overhead small AFC DYAJim midisynth gives you the quality of a keyboard sampler LindsayGS by the way, anybody start a MS song and then let twilight save your screen?? It doesn't know about the MS...but MS blows it's mind.. IRSMan Twilight blows a lot of things' minds :) AFC DYAJim Interesting vague descriptions. Let's not be too ambiguous LindsayGS sorry, Jim - it was an experiment that wasn't finished, and I figure if..TWII is ever finished, it'll know about Tool 35 IRSMan well, I won't mention the recent attempts to barbecue SoundConvert on USENET. Now those were vague complaints. AFC Eddie Hey, my mind didn't know about MS, and MS blew my mind! Dr Who29 Heh... my mind is blown by Ian's MOD player :-) AFC Eddie So Lindsay, you evaded my question: What is it you are/will be working on? IRSMan I got 3 new MODs today that NoiseTracker barfed on, and my player did all of 'em perfect :) Dr Who29 wow! :) LindsayGS just starting to think about it, ed - maybe an upgrade for SysEx that would have some MIDISynth functions - but you know my time limitations. AFC Eddie So what's your new program gonna be called, Ian? Sounds great, Lindsay!!! We need it! We want it! AFC DYAJim Stop using TML Pascal, that's what I say :) LindsayGS I'd like to include Casios, let it be interrupt driven... jim - I'll probably have to ...I just say a source for GeneSys for $79 !.. IRSMan the MOD Player is MODZap of course :) it -requires- a ZipGS (pending better coding :) AFC DYAJim use orca at the least AFC Eddie How about going beyond 32k? LindsayGS (I never got a resource editor) AFC DYAJim wait for foundation! ;) LindsayGS yeah, i know the orca compiler is slower... i got everything done with TML..just no support. What's foundation? AFC Eddie How about a Transwarp, Ian? IRSMan noper ELECTMUSIC Lindsay... any chance of making SysEx an NDA? IRSMan TWGS doesn't cut it for reasons well beyond MY understanding of things. Must be the Zip's cache :) LindsayGS It would only work on MT Jr, not Pro... ELECTMUSIC Why? Dr Who29 <--- doesn't have an accel, but still thinks that MODZap is cool :-) LindsayGS pro won't support NDAs! AFC Eddie What would only work with Jr? The NDA? IRSMan thanks, Dave =) LindsayGS Yes - Jr supports NDAs, but Pro doesn't.. AFC Eddie True, Lindsay. I've always wondered why that is. ELECTMUSIC How about an CDA, then? LindsayGS BTW, I'm ready to fork out 150 for the ZipGS 7MHz /8K, should I save for the 9/32? is it really worth another 100? AFC Eddie Yes! There's even a 10 hz version. LindsayGS that's really a lot of extra dough - isn't most of the improvement 2.6->7? Or is it the cache that really makes the diff? AFC Eddie Yeah, but you deserve a splurge! AFC DYAJim Hey, just think: I paid $250 for a 8/16. AFC Eddie I have 32k cache on my TWGS, and it really helps. AFC DYAJim I think you should at least spend that and go for the extra stuff now. AFC Eddie <--Agreeing with Jim again. IRSMan heh, Tim Meekins' 32k cache TWGS shows up as 2.6 Mhz in NoiseTracker =) Dr Who29 I think the cache makes a pretty big difference.... AFC DYAJim and my 8 mhz zip shows up as 6 mhz in noisetracker LindsayGS (easy for you guys to say, but thanks! - WHATS FOUNDATION?) IRSMan My 8/16 shows up as 6.53 AFC Eddie How does a card "show up" in NoiseTracker? Dr Who29 a raytrace on my stock GS takes about 24-25 hours, but only 3.5-4 on a Zip 9/16 AFC DYAJim foundation is Genesys' new competition :) IRSMan in the Tech Notes...it says what your Mhz is based on VBLs or something LindsayGS really? ELECTMUSIC Interesting Sidebar.... My brother, who also is a music teacher just ordered GS's for his school... and that was without my advice. AFC DYAJim I think mine shows up as 6.03..Who does raytracing on a GS? AFC Eddie Congratulate him for us, Greg! IRSMan we all do LindsayGS Apple dealers don't even know what a GS is....anybody hear the latest from APDA? IRSMan Really Simple Ray Tracer has been out for //gs for about a week It even runs in the background under GNO :) AFC DYAJim APDA is old news :) ELECTMUSIC Yea, I hope they're still available... no dealer around him will order them. IRSMan APDA doesn't do the II anymore LindsayGS APDA= *** NO **** MORE APPLE II support!! Dr Who29 Yeah... it slowed down AOL too much though, so I killed the raytrace :-( AFC DYAJim We've already beaten that topic to death :) AFC Eddie Yeah, anyone got any real MIDI questions or comments? IRSMan I'd just like to mention that if you have an Apple MIDI box you were ripped off:-) AFC DYAJim why? IRSMan My Mac MIDI box cost $35 and has 3 outputs and a neatoid blinkin light :) and it works with all softwares :) AFC DYAJim do you have to plug it in? IRSMan just plug in to the serial port and go :) AFC DYAJim well, I very much doubt your mac midi box was out 3 years ago ELECTMUSIC Hmmm.... where did ya get it? IRSMan With MegaTracker I can use it with the slot set to "Your Card" IRSMan EM: from MacWareHouse ELECTMUSIC Did it include Mac software? IRSMan no software, just a serial cable :) I got 10 foot MIDI cables from a music store for like $5 a piece :) AFC Eddie Greg, have you heard of compatibility problems between MusicStudio and Opcode's external MIDI interface? ELECTMUSIC I guess the blinking lightshow indicate midi data IRSMan yeah ELECTMUSIC No, Eddie IRSMan very handy for debugging things :) ELECTMUSIC Have you? AFC DYAJim applemidi comes with cables IRSMan but cables aren't ($100-$35) :) AFC DYAJim but I didn't pay $100 ELECTMUSIC <--- Likes light shows :) AFC Eddie yes, a teacher who works with GS's says it didn't work right, tho Apple's did! IRSMan that's weird AFC Eddie Yup. ELECTMUSIC Well... could it be the keyboard? AFC Eddie Hmmm, I don't know. Don't know what kind he used. ELECTMUSIC MStudio is very sensitive to specific keyboards IRSMan I have yet to get MStudio to work, although the lights on my interface show its at least talking to that part okay AFC Eddie Any in particular? AFC Eddie What problems are you having, Ian? IRSMan it simply doesn't work. no output, no input. all other software work AFC Eddie hard drive or floppy, Ian? IRSMan floppy ELECTMUSIC Joyce's Yamaha couldn't be Midi'd in... MStudio didn't recognize it Seems. MStudio sends a test signal out to make sure a keyboard is attached. AFC Eddie Booting from the floppy? IRSMan (who me, a harddisk?) yeah, booting from floppy AFC Eddie Hmmmm, might be the control panel settings, but I dunno. IRSMan the Enable MIDI Input isn't even selectable for some reason AFC Eddie What kinda keyboard, Ian? IRSMan Casio MT-240 ELECTMUSIC she had to wait a few seconds and then turn it on during boot up AFC Eddie That's why. IT's the Casio. IRSMan hmm ELECTMUSIC IRS.. that sounds like Joyce's old keyboard AFC Eddie Same problem as the Yamaha Greg's talking about. IRSMan oh, does MStudio not work with Casios? ELECTMUSIC It sort of does AFC Eddie Well, there's a problem with Casios and MIDI. IRSMan really? hmm AFC DYAJim so your interface doesn't work with MS, Ian? ELECTMUSIC The Midi spec was still in development at that time AFC Eddie The signal it sends out is different. IRSMan synthLAB and DTune and such work fine AFC DYAJim oh, its the keyboard ok :) AFC DYAJim MS half works with casios. ELECTMUSIC Try another keyboard AFC DYAJim I used to have a casio that I used with MS.. IRSMan hmm, I guess its time to pull out Orca/Dis AFC DYAJim it was INCREDIBLY erratic. IRSMan I don't have access to any other keyboards AFC DYAJim I think Greg noticed that at an applefest :) ELECTMUSIC ie... maybe a roland or yamaha AFC DYAJim 1989, at the AMS demonstration the casio didn't work too well, if I remember :) AFC Eddie Ian, come over to my place. You can use my Roland. IRSMan I'm gonna be at KansasFest this summer...who else? AFC DYAJim mine would work the first time I recorded something with MS, but then it wouldn't recognize it on following tries..it was weird.. I had to fiddle with that thing so badly. IRSMan no, Boston has been postponed until fall. AFC Eddie Yes, with a Casio, you have to turn it off then on again each time, Jim. ELECTMUSIC <---Looking forward to it in the fall LindsayGS Did everybody hear that Passport is not gonna even SELL MT for the GS anymore? IRSMan no, but I wouldn't doubt it AFC Eddie Yes, we know :( But it's still availble in places. ELECTMUSIC Again , it was nice to some interest in Midi programing for the GS... IRSMan I did hear that IBM users are breaking into laughter at the sight of MT IIgs LindsayGS they wouldn't license it, either (price was $100,000) ELECTMUSIC How about someone develop a sequencer for the new MidiTool AFC Eddie Yeah! I like that idea, Greg! IRSMan heh, new MidiTool? AFC DYAJim $100k??? ELECTMUSIC Right... AFC DYAJim would they let BRCC sell it? ELECTMUSIC Tool35 IRSMan oh, 035 Dr Who29 new? IRSMan that's not exactly new :) LindsayGS don't think so, jim AFC DYAJim what a bunch of dimwits AFC Eddie What we need is a good GS MTPro clone! Dr Who29 someone should still write a sequencer for it though :) AFC Eddie With SysEx! LindsayGS it's not hard to write a sequencer with tool 35, it's just a lot of work to write a good one! (the interface to humans is all the work) AFC Eddie So true, Lindsay. ELECTMUSIC Eddie... what MIDI sequencer is published for the GS now? IRSMan Tool035 dox will be in the 6.0 ERSes, right? ELECTMUSIC Lets see... we've got DiversiTune LindsayGS its in 5.04 dox, too (at least I thought so) AFC Eddie Well, there's MusicWriter, a sequencer of sorts...Diversitune...SynthLAB, a non-sequencer sequencer...I think that's about all, Greg. IRSMan no, not in my 5.0.4 dox (from ftp.apple.com :) Dr Who29 all the sys 6 stuff should be in the ERSes... ELECTMUSIC Right.... MWriter is also sort of a sequencer Dr Who29 especially since there won't be a TB Ref 4 :-( LindsayGS oh, are they gonna start a toolbox vol 4? I don't know, ian, mine are beta IRSMan no, there WON'T be a TB Ref 4 Dr Who29 nope... ELECTMUSIC How about ripping the code off of synthLab and then adding editing is that ethical? :) AFC Eddie Well, I'd like to thank our special guests: ELECTMUSIC, AFC DYAJim, IRSMan, LindsayGS, Dr Who29, all for showing up this evening! IRSMan I'll probably have a 'preview/demo' MegaTracker by the end of next week just to prove you all are wrong :) AFC Eddie Great, Ian! Lindsay, GREAT to see you here! AFC Eddie ---------------------------- Log Off -----------------------