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APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
March 13, 1991  10 PM  ET
Topic:  synthLAB, the newest kid on the block.
Forum Leader:  Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM),
Forum Assistant:  Gene Koh (AFA Gene)
Forum Consultants:  Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt
(AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS)
Copyright (c) 1991 America Online
All Rights Reserved
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AFC Eddie  Hi, DBDerre!

AFL JoyceM Ah the uploader of all those synthLAB songs,
           welcome DBDERRE :)

AFC Eddie  Thanks for the tunes!

AFP TimB   The gangs all back! :)

ELECTMUSIC Yea like old times.....

AFL JoyceM The only announcement I have this week for Apple
           II Music & Sound is that we cordially invite all
           of you to attend on March 20th (next week) when
           we will be hosting and answering the questions
           you submit to Stump the AMS staff!  We have
           prizes galore....and YOU could be a winner :)
           Invite your friends, the more the merrier.

AFA Parik  i uploaded my wave editor, but I think i may have
           moved it to the wrong library :(.  Did it
           windup@ams

Mr Toaster :)

AFC Eddie  Parik honored me this week. First time I've been
           named on a doc as beta tester!

AFL JoyceM Tonight's discussion is on synthLAB ....and MIDI.
           Parik, would you like to talk about your Wave
           Editor for those who might not know what it is
           and what it can do?

AFA Parik  You can create new instruments/waveforms with it.
           Import soundsmith insts, etc.  combined with
           MIDIMate (i think that's what it's called?)
           you've got a powerful combo.

AFC Eddie  Got a question on SynthCreate..

AFL JoyceM Only SoundSmith instruments not MusicStudio?

AFP TimB   Jeez, isn't there some kinda limit on how many
           Long Islanders we can have in one room?

Nuzz       Quick question Parik.

AFA Parik  I didn't try Music Studio insts.  It'll do
           BIN/ASIF/AIFF/HyperStudio/ACE.

Nuzz       I tried the wave editor, and was getting many
           duplicate waves with the same name?

AFP TimB   (<---Has Pariks NDA on his work GS)

AFA Parik  Tim works?  ;)

AFA Parik  I don't know offhand Nuzz.  Sounds like a bug to
           me.  <g>

ELECTMUSIC Tim works.... but he sleeps at the computer :)

Nuzz       <--Was at Tim's old computer club last night :)

Omega Man  Pariks NDA? which one... :)

ELECTMUSIC Parik... I notice the same thing, but I just
           deleted the additional repeated samples.

AFL JoyceM Omega, the synthLAB NDA.

Centaur C  Parik, I've been getting "Unclaimed Snd Irq" if I
           have your BGSOUND in system.

Omega Man  Oh, that didn't work on my machine, I always have
           to use synthLAB itself to listen to samples.

AFC Eddie  Omega, delete CDev.Data and it might work.

AFA Parik  That means someone stole the sound interrupt.
           What program were you running?

Mr Toaster BGInit completely wrecks synthLAB on my
           system...also TransProg.  Doesn't release the
           sound memory.

Omega Man  Parik, is there a version of BGSound that plays
           synthLAB seq's ? mine crashes

AFA Parik  Yes, email me if you want a version of BGSound
           that plays synthlab songs.

Centaur C  PtP, CoPilot, AOL Usually happens with PtP during
           disk saves (RamFast)

AFA Parik  Oh, sorry.  BGSound really isn't meant for ProDOS
           8 stuff.  It works, but marginally.

AFC Eddie  How to use Synthcreate to move insts from one Bnk
           to another?  Or one Wav. to another.  I would
           like to add piano sounds to Orch.Bnk.

Centaur C  CoPilot is 16 bit

Omega Man  I use BGSound all the time when I'm using ProTerm

Mr Toaster Fred, do you have problems loading SL after
           BGInit?

AFA Parik  You really can't Eddie.  The way synthLab is set
           up, all instruments are closely tied to one
           another.  I' tried writing a instrument
           librarian, not much luck.  (if you use BGInit,
           remember to enter the control panel and TURN OFF
           SONG - kills BGInit).

AFC Eddie  Can I add a new digital sample to an existing
           Bnk?

Mr Toaster Yeah, I did that, but I also had to purge the
           memory, before it would run SL properly.

AFA Parik  Eddie - there's a way to do it, its sorta
           complex.  Post a question and I'll write more on
           it.  I gotta go for a finals study session in 10
           mins.

AFC Eddie  Bye, Parik. Thanks for the program!!

ELECTMUSIC Parik.... maybe we could start a folder on it and
           post all comments questions in it.

AFL JoyceM Centaur, you had some questions?

Bill0004   --->  WHERE CAN I GET A COPY OF SL ???  <---

AFC Eddie  In our library!

Centaur C  But I got the idea that tonight is SynthLab only.

AFL JoyceM With the documentation, Bill?

Mr Toaster AMS Forum Library

Bill0004   NAAA!  (AFL)

ELECTMUSIC It seems to me the wave editor is quite usable.

AFA Gene   New Files & Free Uploading area of our Software
           Libraries, Bill.

Bill0004   Is this a really great program???

AFL JoyceM The BEST, Bill :)

Mr Toaster It's in the SL section now, isn't it?

AFC Eddie  SynthLAB?  Best sound for the GS!

Mr Toaster See?  Even other AFC's want to hear about it!

MauriceG1  SL showed me the deficiency in my stereo system

AFA Parik  The PC forums are hooked into PC-Link.  LOTS of
           msgs.

AFL JoyceM Why is that, Maurice?

AFC Eddie  Any MIDI files in PC?

MauriceG1  Speakers aren't good for the bass from my GS now

AFL JoyceM Okay, tonight subject is synthLAB....what
           problems are people having and what would you
           like to see for this excellent program?

AFA Parik  (yes, there are TONS of MIDI files in the pc
           forums)

AFC Eddie  Great!  Can I DL them?

AFA Parik  yes, but most are ZIPed.

AFL JoyceM For synthLAB, we have Cliptunes from Triad
           Venture, MIDIMate from Lindsay Hough and now
           Parik's Wave Editor.

FredChopin What is the difference between synthLAB from APDA
           and synthLAB in the Library?

AFC JohnC  I'd like to see the documents for synthLab to see
           how to use the player and  to tell me how to
           modify some of the song files that aren't playing
           correctly

AFC Eddie  Same program, no docs here, Fred.  No NDA there.

MauriceG1  Can't ShrinkIt GS "UNZIP"?

AFA Gene   Nope, Maurice, but it can Un-ARC.

AFA Gene   There _is_ a program in AUT that Un-ZIP's,
           though.

AFA Parik  If you own orca/m, there is a unzip utility.

AFC Eddie  There is, Gene?

MauriceG1  Gee, If the file is less than 128k, I can un-zip
           it on my Atari Portfolio !

Mr Toaster Is the wave editor in the library yet?

AFL JoyceM What program is the easiest to input with MIDI to
           output or use with synthLAB?

AFL JoyceM It is, Toaster, right, Gene?

AFC Eddie  Mastertracks, of course.

FredChopin Must get that!

AFL JoyceM Is that the only program we have?

AFA Gene   Toast: If it's not right now, it will be within
           minutes. It should be though.

AFC JohnC  Gene ...I haven't seen it yet

AFC Eddie  No, you  can use Musicstudio or Dtune.  But not
           as easy.

Mr Toaster Any ideas on when SL will be updated?  Or
           revamped?

AFC Eddie  Probably never.

AFL JoyceM You can use MusicStudio, how do you convert their
           weird file format?

AFL JoyceM Toaster, I am told there will NO updates to
           synthLAB!

Nuzz       SL, unprobable, but the tool should.

AFC Eddie  You can port from one GS to another, Musicstudio
           to SL.  Some of the songs in our library were
           done that way.

Mr Toaster Really? It's got some major flaws..

AFL JoyceM The tool, as Mike (Nuzz) says, probably.

AFL JoyceM Then how do you use DiversiTune songs for
           conversion, Eddie? same procedure?

Mr Toaster That's okay as long as other programs support
           that format.

AFC Eddie  Porting from Musicstudio is Very Tricky.  You
           must fully understand the MIDI Parameters
           function of MS to do it right.

Mr Toaster Do you have to have two computers to transfer
           MIDI data to SL, or can it be done some other
           way?

AFC Eddie  It can be done with MIDImate if you have a
           standard MIDI file.  If not, you need either two
           computers or an external sequencer.

Mr Toaster What's Lindsay's policy on MIDImate?  PD or not?

AFC Eddie  No.  But well worth the low price.

Mr Toaster How can one get a copy?

AFL JoyceM Eddie, what about DIversiTune files?  How is that
           conversion done?

AFC Eddie  Same as Dtune, but slightly different process.
           Must also go to external sequencer, but first
           check out which tracks are used with which insts.

AFL JoyceM MIDIMate then doesn't do a clean convert with DT
           and MS files, right?

AFC Eddie  Use Active Track feature of DTune to do it.
           Joyce, first you must convert DTune or MS file to
           MIDI file.  Then use MIDImate To create SL song.

AFL JoyceM And, as you said, you have to have an external
           sequencer or two GS's right?

AFC Eddie  Right, Joyce.

AFL JoyceM What external sequencer is recommended?

AFC Eddie  Any one will do, but if you're going to use
           MIDImate, which supports up to seven tracks, you
           should have a sequencer that big.  Most come in
           at least 8 tracks nowadays.  I use the one built
           in to my D-20.

Centaur C  What kind of price range? (used)

AFL JoyceM Average cost for these sequencers?  Cheaper than
           buying another GS :)

AFC Eddie  yes!  Haven't checked them out, but sure you
           could find one under $500.

Centaur C  ACK! I only paid $600 for my GS!

AFC Eddie  Get another!

FredChopin $750 for mine

AFL JoyceM Now that we have MIDIMate and Triad's Clip tunes
           and now Parik's Wave Editor programs, what else
           do you feel we need?

AFC Eddie  Notice it's the AOL people doing all the great
           support for SL?

Mr Toaster Unh huh  pat pat pat

AFL JoyceM Nice feeling too :)

Centaur C  There is a LOT of SL intrest on CIS.....grin

AFC Eddie  They deserve it!

ELECTMUSIC The problem with that Joyce, is that the only
           publicity on SLab is through AOL

Centaur C  (but NO programs, only music)

AFA Gene   ... and no SL online on CI$ :))

Nuzz       Does CIS have synthLab on-Line?

Mr Toaster Yeah, what is some of the SL action on the other
           boards?

AFC Eddie  Zilch, Toast.  Except for some of our tunes
           uploaded there.

AFA Gene   =NOTHING= touches America Online it terms of SL
           support. Not even Apple.

ELECTMUSIC Many GS users have no idea that SLab is so
           powerful or even available

Centaur C  Cis does not have SL. But there are a fair number
           of people who want it.  Most of them are fairly
           good programmers also.

Mr Toaster Too true.   *sigh*

AFC Eddie  Friend of mine showed me a "great" SL tune he
           found on some board.. It was one of mine!

AFA Gene   Tell 'em to subscribe to America Online! :)

AFL JoyceM That is the sad part, Greg - wish there was a way
           we could get A+ and the like to publicize us :)

Nuzz       LOL Eddie, I know that feeling

Centaur C  Eddie..Nice feeling isn't it! <GRIN>

AFC Eddie  Sure you do, Nuzz!  You've probably felt that
           much more than me, Mike.

ELECTMUSIC I feel the first thing necessary is to ge some
           commercial music software to support the new MIDI
           tool.

Nuzz       I had a guy call the other night and said one of
           my programs was shipped on the hard drive he
           bought!

Mr Toaster Don't know why Apple has to give the II line such
           shoddy treatment.

AFC Eddie  WOW, Mike!  Mike, sue 'em!

ELECTMUSIC It doesn't have to be tremendious.

Mr Toaster Did you see the InCider ad?

ELECTMUSIC But synthLAB is not available to the general
           public and therefore is a dead end in terms of
           music on the GS

Centaur C   Support Apple Storm  <GRIN>

AFC Eddie  What inCider ad?

Mr Toaster Apple advertised their new Macs in March InCider.
           I was impressed that they even MENTIONED the II
           line.

AFL JoyceM I wonder if we could get A+/inCider to recognize
           us and SL and AOL and AMS?

Centaur C  <-- is acting Field co-ordinator of AS

Mr Toaster BUT, then they had to say stuff like this:
           "Anything a Mac can do an Apple II can do ... not
           really.  Thanks to a faster  "processor speed and
           other powerful traits, there are some things for
           which the  Macintosh is simply better suited."
           Gag!

Centaur C  Toaster, yea, but it was with a TEXT program,
           look at the kids face & screen!

AFC Eddie  Great idea, Joyce!  How to follow through?

ELECTMUSIC The Apple II evangelist should be seeking some
           company to develop a  product.

AFL JoyceM A project for us to work on, Eddie....get your
           thinking caps on.

AFC Eddie  GS + asked me to write on MIDI.  I could mention
           us there!

AFL JoyceM Hey, that would be great, Eddie - I do subscribe
           to that.

Centaur C  BTW...are there any objections to mentioning the
           Sound work going on here in any Apple Storm ad?

AFC Eddie  Why not, Centaur?

AFL JoyceM Please feel free, Centaur - we would appreciate
           it :)

Mr Toaster "Some programs for the Mac, you'll never see on
           an Apple II."

Centaur C  {S A2}!!

Mr Toaster ('cuz you're not supporting them, stupid!)

AFC Eddie  Yeah like black and white hypercard!

Mr Toaster Nose-up-in-the-air tone REALLY irks me!

Nuzz       I demo'd ClipTunes at the BCS meeting last night

AFL JoyceM A2 Central would be another good place for info
           on us - but he is a GEnie guy!

AFC Eddie  How'd it go, Nuzz?

Nuzz       They really liked it, and the music

Mr Toaster At LEAST they did talk a little about HCGS and
           other new II stuff.  But not SL... of course.

AFC JohnC  I was on with the simulcast....The tunes really
           sounded great....lol

Nuzz       A2 Central sells ClipTunes, so they do kinda
           support it.

AFL JoyceM Mike, your set up for demoing that at BCS, what
           is it (the set up that is)?

Centaur C  Hey, it would take inteligence to mention SL

Nuzz       I brought my CPU, with stereo card and speakers.
           Really blasted them out.  They had a 25 or 30"
           monitor for display.

Mr Toaster "Just because there are Macs in the classroom
           doesn't mean you HAVE to have one at home."

Centaur C  MAC = GREAT file server & print spooler for GS
           -Read it in the Apple GS owners book!!
           (Seriously!)

AFL JoyceM I was afraid you would say that.  I just don't
           want to bring my setup to a meeting....we have an
           overhead Telex display.  Someday I will do it.

Mr Toaster They talked about networks as if everyone had a
           LAN in their home.

AFC JohnC  Toaster....do you mean that you don't have
           monitors all over the house?

Mr Toaster "When a computer outlives it's usefulness, retire
           it from the classroom."

AFL JoyceM Back to synthLAB, what other programs do you all
           feel we need to make it an all around program
           setup?

AFC Eddie  We need a way to move insts among bnks.

Centaur C  A way to synth voiceovers?

AFL JoyceM Is that the problem one that Parik was talking
           about, Eddie?

AFC Eddie  Yes, Joyce.

AFC JohnC  So that you can play those sounds in every room
           and use the synthLab player

DBDERRE    Joyce, I feel like the only thing missing in
           several programs is a jukebox :)

Mr Toaster "If it's not being used - perhaps because a more
           powerful computer (HINT HINT) has replaced it, "
           "or you've switched to software that demands more
           memory," " - don't let it just gather dust.  Pass
           it along your Apple II to the kindergarten class
           or donate the IIGS computers to the music dept.
           when you buy an LC."   IF you buy an LC.

Centaur C  I figure it would be a REAL bear to program.

AFC Eddie  It would allow endless combinations, together
           with SynthCreate.

AFL JoyceM Oh, DBderre, like the one in MusicStudio?

AFA Gene   At least Apple said in their ad that once the
           Computer Lab upgrades from IIgses to Macs, the
           IIgses should go to the music dept. :)

DBDERRE    yes yes :)

AFL JoyceM Mike, how hard would that be to do with synthLAB?

Nuzz       The problem is that if you move the instruments,
           you have to  move the waves, and depending on how
           many waves and where they  load inmemory, it is
           possible to have room for the instruments and not
           the waves

DBDERRE    Joyce, I thought AFA Parik was only one step from
           a jukebox with BGSound - GA

Centaur C  Got a MAC? Take 2 asprin, and DON'T call me!
           <grin>

ELECTMUSIC DB, I agree, would love to see a stand alone
           JukeBox for SLab tunes

AFA Gene   DB and Greg - Softdisk Publishing will be
           releasing a new Jukebox that plays  SynthLAB
           tunes. ;)

Centaur C  Hey, thers a guy in Sweden who HAS a SL jukebox!

Mr Toaster I know Apple doesn't want to lose money on their
           new Macs, but come on.

Whistles   Here's a simple suggestion that applies to AOL
           and any software - When you load a program to
           AOL, let the rest of us know what instruments
           were used to create the original, and what we
           should use with the mide file to make it come out
           like it was in the first place.  maybe in the
           text file introduction that would be a
           introduction to the others.

AFL JoyceM Oh.....Gene....when....I subscribe ...great!

Nuzz       A Juke box SL player is easy

Centaur C  If it's PD or Share, I try to get a copy and U/L
           it here.

AFA Gene   Joyce - you'll love this - it's gonna be released
           as soon as they can finish  adding Music Studio
           capability to it!  (MS is much harder to
           implement than SL).

DBDERRE    I hear you... waiting patiently Gene...:)

AFL JoyceM I can't wait....great, Gene.

AFA Gene   Mike, agreed... the SL part was done the first
           day even tho it's the main  advertised feature of
           the program.

Mr Toaster I'm now dlding LOTS of stuff off Usenet to
           reupload here.  Both Caltech and Washington
           University have large A2 program databases.

AFC Eddie  Great, Gene!  Will you be doing new SL creations
           for SDGS?

ELECTMUSIC Agreed Mike. It seems there are versions of this
           player around already, ie. ClipTunes and the NDA,
           and Background Sound etc.

AFA Gene   yep, Eddie. :)

AFC Eddie  Great, Gene!

AFA Gene   Also look for more games with MIDI Synth
           soundtracks! :)  (and not that pseudo-new age
           stuff on Dragon Wars :)

Mr Toaster Yeah!!

AFC Eddie  Whistles, when you load a SL song, it
           automatically looks for the insts used when it
           was saved.

Mr Toaster How many IIGS games are coming out now each year?

AFL JoyceM Whistles, we will take that into consideration -
           and thanks for the ideas.

Centaur C  Whistles...How about a straight text file in the
           .BXY?  instead of just in the D/L info?  That way
           one would always have it if/when need

Mr Toaster Not many.

AFA Gene   Each YEAR, Toast? I don't think the situation is
           so bad that we have to talk about yearly
           numbers.... quarterly numbers aren't that good
           tho :(

AFL JoyceM Some, Classics, Gene? :)

Mr Toaster Good idea! I don't know... go over to AGR and
           listen around.

Whistles   A straight text file is fine in the .bxy  maybe
           tell where the instrument files can be found and
           down-loaded.

AFC Eddie  Gene, you still working with the pangea guys at
           all?

AFA Gene   Yes, I'm still working with Pangea.

AFL JoyceM BTW, if you all haven't checked out our library
           recently, DBderre has uploaded a multitude of SL
           songs...and we are releasing them as fast as we
           can - thanks.

Centaur C  Night Toaster, don't get crusty! <grin>

AFC Eddie  Anything new coming from there you can tell us
           about?

DBDERRE    Welcome...hope you enjoy....working on more...:)

AFC Eddie  Great!

Nuzz       New songs, great

AFL JoyceM I am partial to the classics, DBderre :)

Centaur C  How about someone doing Elton John, Funeral for a
           freind?

DBDERRE    I think I can work that Joyce,,:)

Centaur C  <-- can't play worth a darn, but is a programmer :-)

AFC Eddie  Would like to see some people do originals.

AFL JoyceM Has anyone done Forever's as far as I'll go by
           Alabama?  I have to play this at my nieces
           wedding in May.

AFC Eddie  Have fun, Joyce!

Nuzz       We're looking for good original stuff at Triad
           Centaur

AFC Eddie  What kind, Nuzz?

Nuzz       Programs of general interest

Centaur C  What language?

DBDERRE    EQ-V, The Eye, & Holly Holy were our own
           renditions - u might like EQ-V Eddie!

Centaur C  <-- speaks very fluent 6502/65c02, and almost up
           to speed on 65816

Nuzz       Usually assembly, but if it just for publishing,
           it doesn't matter much

AFC Eddie  I'll try it!

ELECTMUSIC How about  a nice sequencer using the new MIDI
           Tool?

Centaur C  What state?

AFC Eddie  Greg, that would be great. If, for example,
           Musicwriter supported it!

AFL JoyceM Great, idea, Greg...that one I could use too -
           all of us could :)

Nuzz       state? you mean 8 or 16, we do all GS

ELECTMUSIC Doesn't have to be fancy

Centaur C  Elect..right now am working on a Navigator look
           alike for CIS (BIG job!) but a sequencer wouldn't
           be out of the question (once I get up to speed
           that is).

Centaur C  Nuzz...what state in the country is Triad in?

AFC Eddie  Go to it, Centaur!

ELECTMUSIC Just something to get the new tool out the door

AFL JoyceM You guys can keep talking, but I have to call it
           an evening....thanks for all the input and good
           chat....

Nuzz       I'd love to do a sequncer, but I don't have the
           time or the musical knowledge to do it justice

AFC Eddie  Goodnight, Joyce, thanks!

ELECTMUSIC at least for musicians that is

Nuzz       LOL New York

America Online - 1991