=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
March 18, 1992  10 PM  ET
Topic: Instruments and Synths!
Forum Leader:  Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM),
Forum Assistant:  Gene Koh (AFA Gene)
Forum Consultants:  Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt
(AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS)
Copyright (c) 1992 America Online
All Rights Reserved
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Timothy7   Why has GS music become so unpopular?

AFC Eddie  Who says its unpopular..It's popular around here!

AFA Gene   On the contrary, Noisetracker 1.0 has just been released, Tim!

Timothy7   I hardly see anything new in any of the forums!

AFC Eddie  Tim, we get more new uploads than most other forums.

Timothy7   I need utilities that will allow me to compose with MIDI - not
           just to play.

AFA Gene   True, Tim, some of Apple II forums are hurting now, but we are
           happily not one of them!

AFC Eddie  What kind of setup do you have, Tim?

Timothy7   GS w/ Audio Animator and a Yamaha DX7-IIFD

AFC Eddie  Have you thought about Mastertracks?

Timothy7   I'm sort of in the "obsolete" age.

AFA Gene   BTW all, our scheduled topic tonight is Tools for SynthLAB but
           it'll probably be easier just to chat freely.

Timothy7   I can't downloaded, and I can't afford it I'm only 14 yrs old!

AFC Eddie  The DX7 has a great sound, tho.

McKinsey   Does anyone here know how to tune a 12-string guitar??

AFC Eddie  Only 14!  Wow, you must be talented!

ELECTMUSIC Is the demo of DiversiTune still online?

AFC Eddie  Yes, Mckinsey, I do.

McKinsey   Good!

Nuzz       You still trying to tune that? :)

AFC Eddie  Can you tune a 6-string?

McKinsey   I bought a Gibson 6/12 Double Neck SG last week... and I can't
           figure out how to tune the 12 string part.. I have it tuned, but
           I don't think it's right.

AFC Eddie  Yes, the demo's still online, Greg.

McKinsey   I have a digital tuner that I use for my 6 string..

ELECTMUSIC Tim... try the DiversiTune Demo.... it will record Midi

AFA Gene   Yep, Chris, I do.... the easiest way would be to tune only one of
           each pair of strings on the 12-string, with the digital tuner,...
           then do the same with the other; just make sure it's one string
           at a time or the reading will be meaningless.

AFC Eddie  The 12 string has the same tuning, but each pair is simply an
           octave apart on the lower strings.

Timothy7   How long will it last, and what am I limited to?

ELECTMUSIC Kinda forget what the limit is on the demo? Anyone remember?

AFA Gene   Or, even better, find someone who can tune it by ear... easiest
           and fastest

Timothy7   The GS is now OBSOLETE!  I'm hoping to get an IBM for my
           birthday!

AFC Eddie  Sez Who???

ELECTMUSIC Ohhhh.... it will only play Grand Old Flag. OBSOLETE!!!! never

McKinsey   Ok, so the "thicker" strings on the 12 string should be tuned just
           like a regular 6 string? And the thinner ones an octave higher?

Timothy7   I'm sorry I can hardly find anything for it anymore...

ELECTMUSIC We're still waiting for the other platforms to catch up to what
           the GS can DO!

AFC Eddie  Just tune them to what sounds like the same note.  It'll be
           right.

AFA Gene   Sort of, Chris... the lower-pitched three strings are octaves
           apart but the higher 3 are at the same pitch... the detuning
           effect of hitting both strings (there will Always be some
           discrepancy) produces the characteristic 12-string sound.

           The discrepancy will not be noticeable to most peoples ears, tho,
           obviously.

Timothy7   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ QUIZ QUESTION ~~~~~

           WHAT IS A FENDER-RHODES?

AFC Eddie  It's an electric piano.

ELECTMUSIC a Keyboard

AFC Eddie  No longer made, since Roland took it over.

Timothy7   WHEN WAS IT POPULAR?

PCC Dan    A Roland keyboard.

AFC Eddie  In the early and mid 70's.

ELECTMUSIC Did we Pass?

Timothy7   I have one, and I absolutely love it!  I just midi-ized it.

AFC Eddie  Great!

Timothy7   It is too bad that you can't play back, but it is a one-of I
           kind instrument that you can't find anywhere.

AFC Eddie  With a MIDI sequencer, you can play back.

ELECTMUSIC Too HEAVY, though

Timothy7   No no no!!  The piano is completely mechanical!

McKinsey   Yah, we'll, I've noticed the 12-string electric produces are REAL
           nice magical sort of tone, especially for when playing songs like
           "Stairway to Heaven", and "Hotel California"...

AFC Eddie  Didn't you say you MIDI-ized it?

ELECTMUSIC That's Right... no electronics for sound production

AFC Eddie  Yeah, that SG double neck is nice.

Timothy7   Believe it or not, Yes, but you can only record midi...

AFC Eddie  You should try doing some old Byrds tunes on it!

McKinsey   It looks EXACTLY like Jimmy Page's..

AFA Gene   Yep, Chris... that's the "detuning," a.k.a. "phase shifting"
           effect I was referring to... yep, must sound awesome!

AFC Eddie  Oh, MIDI out only, Tim?

Timothy7   It has a bunch of tines in it that a hammer strikes, producing a
           bell sound. The bell sound is then put through a pickup into the
           amp.

McKinsey   Do you two play guitar, I take it? :)

ELECTMUSIC Eddie.... the Rhodes used metal bars for acoustical sound
           production

Timothy7   Did you ever hear the song "Just the Way You Are" by B. Joel?

AFC Eddie  Nice sound....

Timothy7   That's the piano he plays.

ELECTMUSIC Still.... TOO HEAVY!  You need at least two people to move it!

Timothy7   DEFINITELY!  Did you own one ELEC?

ELECTMUSIC I'll take a Sampled Rhodes any day.  We used one in school

AFC Eddie  I play guitar, McK.

Timothy7   You can't sample it!  There is not one keyboard on the market
           today that sounds like one!

ELECTMUSIC Sure ya can sample it

AFC Eddie  I've heard nice Rhodes samples.

Timothy7   Yeah, but you don't get the same action and velocity sensitivity

AFA Gene   Yep, Chris... and you know, you have a real gem on your hands!

ELECTMUSIC Fender Rhodes Sample

AFC Eddie  True, Tim.

McKinsey   Well, actually, it's my second guitar.. my other is a Black Les
           Paul Custom.

McKinsey   I'm a GIbson man myself. :)

ELECTMUSIC Everything is a trade off though... to save my back... I'll
           sacrifice a little.

Timothy7   When you hit the key hard, it makes more of a tinny "Bernt" type
           of sound.

AFC Eddie  McKinsey, I have a metallic red ES-335, vintage 1968.

McKinsey   It's an '85, but the Double Neck is a '73... SO it's getting up
           there.

McKinsey   ES-335?

Timothy7   In fact, I completely rebuilt mine.

AFC Eddie  Yeah, double cutaway semi-hollow from Gibson.

Timothy7   The action was dead.  I took it all apart, cleaned it, and gave it
           some new felts.

ELECTMUSIC I have a Gibson SG Special from 1966 anyone have any idea how much
           its worth?

Timothy7   probably about 650.

AFC Eddie  That's a nice Guitar, Greg!

McKinsey   Hmm.. a '68.. That's getting near collector age. :)

AFC Eddie  I'm past collectors age :)

Timothy7   Does anyone have a MOOG?

McKinsey   :)

ELECTMUSIC I also have an older Gibson pre 60 ... just not sure what model
           (single pickup).  I have two Moog sound modules

AFC Eddie  Might be a MelodyMaker, Greg.

ELECTMUSIC Yep that's it

McKinsey   single pickup? Wow...

ELECTMUSIC How much is that worth?

AFC Eddie  Can't say, but I guess less than the SG Special.

Nuzz       You cashing in your chips Greg?

AFC Eddie  Greg, let me know when you're ready to let go of the SG!

ELECTMUSIC My wife says I need to sell old stuff before I can buy new
           stuff.

AFC Eddie  Sounds like my wife.

AFA Andy   Wives are like that, so I've been told :)

McKinsey   Does the SG have 24 frets?

Timothy7   What's a sound module?

Nuzz       Keep the stuff, sell the wife :)

Timothy7   Ill buy it!

AFC Eddie  A sound module is a device that produces sounds without a
           keyboard.

McKinsey   I've always found SGs to be awkwardly balanced.. just my
           preference.

ELECTMUSIC Two oscillators for the first generation of Moog synths

Timothy7   how does it work without a keyboard?  Especially a MOOG!

AFC Eddie  Modern ones work with MIDI keyboards.

ELECTMUSIC Hmmm.....Ok Eddie did you play in any rock groups from
           Hicksville

Timothy7   How?  Back in the 70's there was no such animal.

AFC Eddie  Yeah, a few.  Went to high school with B. Joel.

Timothy7   ARE YOU KIDDING?

AFC Eddie  You're right, Tim.  Before MIDI you used knobs!

AFA Andy   I played for John Denver, but he's not a rock group :)

AFC Eddie  His group and mine were in a battle of the bands once!

Timothy7   who won?

ELECTMUSIC No, Moog developed separate sound modules for expansion.... work
           with control

AFC Eddie  Neither of us won.

ELECTMUSIC voltages rather then Midi

Timothy7   do you have the kb to go with them?

ELECTMUSIC What was the name of the group Eddie

AFC Eddie  His Group was the Hassles.  Mine was the Insane Faith! We did a 15
           minute break song called Insanity!

           <---Did major fuzz/wahwah guitar break!

ELECTMUSIC No.... the modules where given to me by some one who had the
           Mark III

Timothy7   can I use the modules?

ELECTMUSIC Do you have a Moog?

Timothy7   no.  but Ive been looking all over east creation for one.

AFC Eddie  Wow, Tim, you do like old stuff!

ELECTMUSIC Well ya need one... even a Mini Moog will do

Timothy7   yes.  I dont understand it, but the sound of the old stuff is so
           much better

Timothy7   than the new stuff.

ELECTMUSIC Ahhh.... you like analog

Timothy7   Which one was the MINI MOOG?

McKinsey   So what kind of amps do you'all prefer?

Timothy7   Is that the one B Joel used in Angry Young MAN?

ELECTMUSIC Moog's first portable synth

AFC Eddie  I like my Peavey, McK.

Timothy7   I have a Plush head with a TRaynor 4 x 12 cabinet.  (tubes) 100w
           Does the mini have 2 kbds?

ELECTMUSIC No, Timothy. Analog: Noise and distortion covers up all the
           imperfections :)

Timothy7   can you split the kbd? how many keys?

ELECTMUSIC No... its not even Midi

Timothy7   I know that its not midi, but my band would like to perform ANgry
           YOung Man but we just don't have the equipment.

ELECTMUSIC Eddie... when did you graduate from HSchool

Timothy7   I need one w/ 2 kybds..

AFC Eddie  Do I have to tell you?   1970.

Timothy7   What was the Moog Rouge?

ELECTMUSIC The Mini never had two keyboards

Timothy7   Can you expand it w/ the modules?

ELECTMUSIC OOhhhh, Geez Eddie I had no idea :)

AFC Eddie  Hey, I've been rock'n'rolling for a long time.  BUT:

           Billy Joel is older!

ELECTMUSIC Yes, the older Control voltage modules from Moog or Arp should
           work

           I graduated in ....................68.

Timothy7   How much do youn think one of these things will cost?

ELECTMUSIC Which things, Tim?

Timothy7   Moogs.

ELECTMUSIC The MiniMoog, used will probably run you about $500.  Its a
           collectors instrument, now.  Unless you can find someone who
           needs to unload it.

Timothy7   What was the Moog Rouge? Was that a top of the line model?

ELECTMUSIC Its was the only portable model

Timothy7   Whats the difference, theyre small right?

ELECTMUSIC yep, all the others where big

Timothy7   I am not worried about the portability  AS BIG AS A RHODES?

ELECTMUSIC all the others had a separate keyboard module with  the sound
           modules in separate enclosures. No, it was designed as a
           portable... easy to move.

Timothy7   I couldn't care less if they were separate!

ELECTMUSIC but you should have some sort of carrying case for it

Timothy7   What about an ARP.  Are they any different?

ELECTMUSIC Basically similar... except the sound of Moog's Low pass filter
           was much warmer then Arp's

Timothy7   whats a low pass filter?

ELECTMUSIC oohh boy... Tim, you need to design EVERY Sound separately.
           There is NO memory.

Timothy7   How, do you just turn the dials till you get the sound you want?

ELECTMUSIC Sort of, but you need to have a basic understanding of subtractive
           synthesis

Timothy7   whatever that is....

AFC Eddie  Ahh, subtractive synthesis.....removing overtones.

ELECTMUSIC Which is.... subtracting overtones from complex waves.  Hence the
           need for a low pass filter

Timothy7   Ah!  I had to do that when I rebuilt my Rhodes, except, all I had
           to do was turn a screw.

ELECTMUSIC Well... there are many more controls on a synth.  Also... the
           early Moog's required patch chords to connect the modules but,
           the Minimoog came pre patched.

Timothy7   DO you know of anyone who is trying to get rid of their old
           synths?

ELECTMUSIC I believe the "Rouge" was an inexpensive version of the MiniMoog

Timothy7   What was it a shabbily built jalopy?

ELECTMUSIC Every now and then I see one in the papers

Timothy7   Which paper?

ELECTMUSIC No... The MiniMoog had 3 oscillators and I believe the Rouge only
           had one (not sure, though)

Timothy7   So it could only run one voice at a time right?

ELECTMUSIC They all could only play ONE voice at a time

Timothy7   no chords in other words...

ELECTMUSIC Even the $30,000 Mark III could only play ONE VOICE at a time. NO
           CHORDS

Timothy7   30,000 dollars for a synthesizer... theyre not even that expensive
           today!  How does Joel play the chords then?

AFC Eddie  He doesn't play chords on one of them!

ELECTMUSIC Yep.... The Mark III was the one I worked with at College (same
           one the Beatles used in ABBY Road)

Timothy7   In angry young man he does.. listen to the instrumental.. There is
           a string like Moog sound in chords..Or did he use a different
           synthesizer?

ELECTMUSIC A few years after the MiniMoog... the PolyMoog came out and that
           could play chords

Timothy7   can you find one of those anywhere?  And how much $?

ELECTMUSIC Geez.... I haven't seen any of those USED

Timothy7   They probably don't even exist anymore.... The RHODES took me a
           year to find!

ELECTMUSIC Probably cause Moog was in deep $  trouble  at this time
           and also the Yamaha and Korg  thing was developing

Timothy7   this was the late 70's?

ELECTMUSIC The DX7 Killed Moog !!!!!

ELECTMUSIC The Poly was about $5000 new

Timothy7   But the DX doesn't sound like a moog!

ELECTMUSIC The DX could be had for $2000 and it had memory for voices
           Moog's last Keyboard (as I remember it) was the Memory Moog

Timothy7   what year was that?

ELECTMUSIC and that was about $3000 in direct competition with the DX and
           Moog Music was owned by Norlin Music at this point.  It was the
           mid  to late 70's.

Timothy7   It's just too bad!  I was really looking forward to a Moog!  DO
           you know of any synths that sound like one?

ELECTMUSIC After that the subtractive synthesis relinquished its throne to FM
           synthesis

           Moog---> to Yamaha

Timothy7   but my DX7IIFD just won't sound like one!

AFC Eddie  The Roland D Series revived Subtractive Synth.

ELECTMUSIC There are a few companies that are resurrecting the old Moog
           designs

Timothy7   I got disks, cartridges, and even tried creating my on, but it is
           literally impossible!  Is the Moog coming back into popularity?

ELECTMUSIC check Keyboard magazine.  No the DX is a completely different
           designed synth.  FM synthesis can not sound like subtractive
           synthesis

AFC Eddie  Well, gang, I'm gonna call it a night.  Tim and Mck, Thanks for
           coming by! I hope we see you both again soon!