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APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
May 15, 1991  10 PM  ET
Topic: SynthLAB, MIDI
Forum Leader:  Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM),
Forum Assistant:  Gene Koh (AFA Gene)
Forum Consultants:  Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt
(AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS)
Copyright (c) 1991 America Online
All Rights Reserved
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AFL JoyceM Bytemaster, are you interested in music and
                    sound? What applications do you have or use?

Bytemaster I sure am, Joyce I like synthLAB, also use
                     DT,MTjr and MS

AFC Eddie  Those are the best ones, Bytemaster!

AFL JoyceM Do you use MIDI input?

Bytemaster Yes, but I'm not to good at the keyboard!

AFL JoyceM What keyboard do you have?

Bytemaster I have a YAMAHA PSS-680.

AFL JoyceM Byte, is there anything we can help you with with
                    the programs you are presently using? Before I forget, next
                    week we will be having Roger Wagner as our guest!

Bytemaster Joyce, How do you midi in to synthLAB, live or
                     from a sequencer?

AFL JoyceM I do it live- Eddie, how do you input?

AFC Eddie  I don't input directly to SynthLAB.  Not enough
                  editing ability. I'd rather do it in Mastertracks and get to
                  SL through Midimate.

AFL JoyceM Byte, are you familiar with Midimate?

ELECTMUSIC Isn't it ashame that Apple comes out with a great
                     Midi tool, and there is NO ONE creating a sequencer program
                     that uses this tool!

AFC Eddie  That's a great shame, Greg!

AFL JoyceM I know, Greg....what a shame!

Bytemaster Ed, doesn't Midimate have a 43 or 47k file size
                     limit?

AFC Eddie  Something like that, Bytemaster, but very few
                  songs are longer than that.

JMY        HI EVERYONE , I'M HERE CAUSE I JUST BOUGHT AN
              AUDIO ANIMATOR.

AFC Eddie  Congratulations, JMY!

AFA Gene   great, JMY! how do you like it so far?

AFL JoyceM Great, JMY....how can we help you?  (BTW, please
                    take off your caps lock) :)

JMY        IT'S REALLY GREAT BUT I NEED TO BUY AN INSTRUMENT
              (MIDI).   Sorry about the caps.

AFL JoyceM That's okay...just looks like you are shouting :)
                    Do you play a keyboard instrument now?  We are here to help
                    you decide what keyboard would be the best for your
                    situation.

JMY        I don't play anything now but I'd love to learn
              and fool around.

AFA Gene   Do you plan on using the AA mostly for digitizing
                  or for MIDI sequencing?

JMY        Is there any reasonably priced keyboard around?
              actually,I don't know what I'll do most.

AFC Eddie  Depends on what you can spend, JMY.

JMY        I've got my AA hooked up to Bose speakers and a
              Sony cd.

AFC Eddie  Must make a nice sounds with SynthLAB that way.

AFA Gene   nice setup! :)    You can find consumer-level
                  MIDI keyboards for under $250 at stores such as Service
                  Merchandise.  Or, for more professional-sounding stuff (i.e.
                  stuff that sounds better than even SynthLAB, you'll have to
                  spend more (over $400). To be frank, the typical $200
                  keyboard does not produce sound anywhere near the quality of
                  the  IIgs with SynthLAB (or SoundSmith, or basically any
                  music program for that matteR).

JWankerl   I wish mine had cost that much :-)

JMY        I can afford to spend what I want, but I don't
              want to spend much more than $200.

ELECTMUSIC and might not be Midi!

AFC Eddie  Depending on the songs, of course!  ;)

Nuzz       Now all you need is ClipTunes :)

JMY        My ss sounds better than synthlab.

AFA Gene   BUT.... if you play piano at all a cheap MIDI
                  keyboard will provide a great  means of inputting songs.

AFL JoyceM Speaking of ClipTunes, Mike how about telling us
                    about your great program?

AFA Gene   I agree, JMY, many SS songs do sound better than
                  SL.  Beautiful samples of all insts.

AFL JoyceM Except that all the SS songs are very noisy rock
                    type - not my style, but the  sounds are great!

ELECTMUSIC Why would that be, Gene?

Nuzz       Nothing much to tell Joyce. Cliptunes lets _you_
               play music in either HS or

AJMY        The piano for similar songs seem to be better in
                SS for example

AFA Gene   I think I know what you're talking about, JMY.

Nuzz       With Pariks SynthCreate you can create your own
               samples and with a certain stack and xcmd that should be out
               in July, you can extract Midisynth waves (individual) into
               HCGS and back.

JWankerl   Nifty.

AFL JoyceM Wow....not sooner than July, Mike?

AFC Eddie  Great, Mike.

JMY        I can't seem to get the synthlab NDA to work

AFL JoyceM Speaking of stacks...just to remind you all that
                    Roger Wagner will be our guest next week - HyperStudio.

Nuzz       The digitizing end is going slower than
                anticipated.

AFC Eddie  What happens when you try the NDA, JMY?

AFL JoyceM JMY, what happens?  What message do you get?

JMY        no message my system just freezes

AFC Eddie  Here are some suggestions for getting the NDA to
                  work:

  1.  Make sure tool 035 is installed.

  2.  Make sure the Midi CDev is installed.

  3.  Make sure the Apple.Midi driver is installed.

  4  .Delete the file CDev.Data from your CDev folder.

  5.  Deactivate BGSound if you have it installed.

  6.  Reboot.

  Have you tried those things, JMY?

JMY        Tool 035 is installed,as is the Midi Cdev,
              Cdev.Data I'm not sure about I'll try it, Thanx

AFC Eddie  Once you delete that file and reboot, a new
                  version will be created that will allow the NDA to work. But
                  don't try to use the NDA after running SynthLAB without
                  rebooting either.

AFL JoyceM How much memory in your GS, JMY?

JMY        3 meg.   I always reboot first

AFC Eddie  Sounds like the ol' CDev.Data problem, then.

AFL JoyceM So you use or have a lot of CDA's and NDA's
                    installed?

JMY        Yes

AFL JoyceM With 3 megs of memory those shouldn't be a
                    problem, but you might want to deactive some and try the NDA
                    then.

JMY        Will do,thanx

AFC Eddie  Let us know, JMY!

JMY        I will

AFL JoyceM Greg, what is the program you felt we needed for
                    SynthLAB to be complete? <I see my fingers are not
                    corresponding with my mind!!>

Nuzz       I've done some playing around with a MS sequence
               file and have broken it down from HCGS and extracted the Seq
               Items in a field You can change each item, and add to it

AFL JoyceM That's MusicStudio?

AFC Eddie  Like editing?

Nuzz       No, Midisynth

Nuzz       yes, edit the seq items

AFC Eddie  That's great!

AFL JoyceM Then, Mike....where is our Sequence Editor
                    program? 

AFC Eddie  Must be on the way!

Nuzz       what I could use is a list of Midi Note values

AFA Gene   So you have the makings of a Step Editor Stack!
                  :)

AFC Eddie  Wonder if that's in the MidiSynth docs, Mike.

Nuzz       No Eddie, that Midi stuff.

AFC Eddie  Let me check what I've got around here, Mike....

Nuzz       I can display the number for the note, but I need
               a list that tells me what note it is.   Are you familiar
               what a MidiSynth seq item contains?

ELECTMUSIC Question for ya Gene.... I have 200 FM
                     synthesizers sounds in the SysEXGS format.  I originally
                     purchased them in for the Brother's sequencer.... The 3.5
                     disk for the Brothers has a copyright notice...

AFL JoyceM Geez...!!!

AFC Eddie  Mike, do you know how the numbers run at all?

ELECTMUSIC can these sound be uploaded in the SysEx format?

AFL JoyceM As I was asking, I am not sure what you needed,
                    Mike?

Nuzz       Yes Eddie I know what it means. Here it is:

AFC Eddie  You   mean legally, Greg?

Nuzz   Track Number (0-15)

           Time Stamp High (0-256)

           Time Stamp Low (0-256)

           Time Stamp Mid (0-256)#

           Data Byte Count (0-2)

           MidiStatus & Channel Number ($8x-$fx)

           Data Byte 1 (0-255)

           Data byte 2 (0-255).  Thats it.

AFA Gene   Gray area, definitely. If we were really strict,
                  it wouldn't be allowed because in essence it's the same
                  patch information.

ELECTMUSIC I guess what I am asking can one copyright the
                     "designs of a sound"

AFA Gene   But since it _is_ in the gray area, there is
                  really nothing that says you  can't upload it.

AFC Eddie  I think that stuff is proprietary.

AFC Eddie  But there's supposed to also be a note number,
                  right, to identify the pitch.

Nuzz       I'll have to talk to Greg about those Time Stamp
               Values though

Nuzz       Eddie, that would be the Data bytes

AFC Eddie  I believe middle C (C3) is data byte 48.

AFC Eddie  And it goes up and down one number per half step.

AFA Gene   Greg, hope that answered your question. There
                  should be no problem with the upload.

ELECTMUSIC The time stamps have to do with the rhythm (kinda
                     of simplistic answer, I know)

Andy Stein Is there something for the Mac better than
                    Mastertracks Pro?

AFA Gene   Master Tracks Pro v4.0, Andy. :)

AFC Eddie  If someone would develop them, the GS could have
                  all the applications the Mac has.

Andy Stein You guys know better than I! Don't worry; you're
                    not insulting me.  :) It's the truth, it's the truth.

AFA Gene   Actually...... if Apple gave the GS some SPEED
                  then there would be no problem whatsoever, EVEN in the
                  studio!

Andy Stein As far as QUALITY, which, in your expert
                    opinions, would you say produces the better?

Nuzz       The Mac by itself is a real Mute....

AFC Eddie  GS all the way, Andy!!!

AFA Gene   I think there are really three different types of
                  music software:

   1. Pro sequencing (for the studio)
   2. Amateur sequencing (for the average musician)
       majority of users
   3. Digitizing.
       
       The IIgs kills the Mac in depts. 2 and 3. (for the price).
                  
Andy Stein But, of course, any serious composer could buy a
                   Zip GS if he really needed speed.

Nuzz       The price to beef up a Mac to Studio quality is,
               well, affordable only by studios

ELECTMUSIC Agreed, Mike

Andy Stein Interesting.  Could you produce album-quality
                    music on the GS, or would a Mac be better suited, because of
                    the availability and kind of software?

AFC Eddie  GS also kills the Mac in sound reproduction
                  software, Gene.

ELECTMUSIC Not to mention the SOUND~QUALITY of the GS has it
                     way over the Mac!

Nuzz       Not directly from the Ensoniq Andy

AFA Gene   You could Andy, but it would take a little
                  longer.

ELECTMUSIC Thats the point he conviently missed!

Andy Stein The only problem is the Apple IIGS's internal
                    speaker; but that can be remedied with external speakers. :)

AFA Gene   In either case, Mac or GS, it would be through
                  MIDI.

AFC Eddie  Right, Gene.

ELECTMUSIC In Hypermedia the GS KILLS the MAC!!!!!!

Andy Stein But, can't any computer use MIDI? Why the GS? (I
                   sound like Barbara Walters.)

AFA Gene   LOL, Andy... that's true, you could theoretically
                  cut an album using a  computer-driven MIDI system based
                  around a Yamaha SY77 or something, and on a Mac it would be
                  easy, IIgs a bit more tedious cuz of the lack of speed, and
                  on a IIe or other 8-bit would be very hard if not
                  impossible.

AFC Eddie  I'm doing a demo album on cassette using my GS.

ELECTMUSIC But Gene you could cut a computer Album, strictly
                     using the GS and sell 3.5 disks as your album media..

Andy Stein Sounds neat, Eddie.  If it's OK with your
                    producer, would you mind uploading some of the music you're
                    doing for the album?

AFA Gene   True, greg, and no other computer can claim that
                  with any integrity,

AFL JoyceM What I have heard of Eddie's album, it will be a
                    HIT....great sounds and songs....the voice, welll...... :)

ELECTMUSIC So what ya think Gene... are ya up to it!

AFC Eddie  Can't really upload most of it, cause there's
                  vocal tracks, etc. Producer? LOL!

AFA Gene   I've cut "demo tapes" using my IIgs as a
                  sequencer, in fact I've had to in order to register
                  copyright.

Andy Stein By the way, congratulations on the album!

AFC Eddie  Just a demo....

Nuzz       Eddie, If you take out the samples in the
               midisynth wave file that overlap

ELECTMUSIC I want a 3.5 disk of GS tunes loaded in to the GS
                     and then  played

AFA Gene   Ed, does it use the Emu equpment?

Andy Stein Demo!

Nuzz       the sound tools generators, you could have
               digitized voice and Synth music

AFC Eddie  Yes, predominantly, Gene.

Nuzz       playing together in Hyperstudio with our Xcmd

AFC Eddie  That's unbelievable, Mike.

Nuzz       would make a cool demo

Andy Stein But you'd need an awfully large storage device to
                    accomodate vocalization, wouldn't you?

AFA Gene   Ah, that would really sound nice, ed :)

AFC Eddie  Gene, want a copy of what I've got so far?

Nuzz       If anyones interested in doing it, I'll look up
               the mem locations of what to delete from the wave files

Andy Stein Would the GS be as good as the Mac, with the use
                    of a Zip GS, for sequencing?

AFC Eddie  With the right software, yes, Andy.

AFL JoyceM Interesting, Mike....

AFL JoyceM I have the ZipGSX :)

AFC Eddie  But the most powerful sequencing software is
                  still Mac.

AFC Eddie  Type 1 of Gene's prior analysis.

Andy Stein Maybe some enterprising small software company
                    could make an incredible sequencer for the Apple IIGS.
                    Could do for the GS what the Amiga did for video

AFC Eddie  that would be great, but it would be easier for
                  Passport to upgrade mastertracks for the GS.

AFL JoyceM Small software company by the name of Triad? for
                    example!

Andy Stein (Hint, hint.) :)

Nuzz       You can't get any smaller than Triad :)

AFL JoyceM That'll be the day, Eddie :(

AFC Eddie  Yeah, Nuzz!!!!!!!!

Andy Stein True, it would be easier for Passport to upgrade
                    it.  Maybe sales are low. :)

AFA Gene   It would take a lot of $$$ to develop such a
                  sequencer, tho.

AFC Eddie  Not low.  Nonexistent.

AFL JoyceM If they lowered their prices, their sales might
                    go up!

Nuzz       It would have to be a labor of love
               (unfortunatly)

Andy Stein Do you all think that if a powerful enough
                    software, accelerator, MIDI package were created for the
                    Apple IIGS, it would 1.  Revive the Apple IIGS market,  like
                    video did for the Amiga 2. Make the company a lot of money;
                    3. Sell well?

AFC Eddie  Sure!

Nuzz       Nothing short of a total commitment by Apple is
               going to rvive GS sales

AFL JoyceM I think we need to follow up on this type of
                    conversation - another chat, okay?