Apple II Music & Sound - September 25, 1990 Subject: Private discussion with Mark Cecys, programmer of the soon-to-be released SynthLAB and Tool 35 for the Apple IIGS. Release will be on America Online thru APDA. Guest: Mark Cecys Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM) Participants: Developers on America Online AFL JoyceM We are going to discuss SynthLAB (SL) or MIDISynth & the new Tool 35...ideas, etc. whatever you all want. AFA Gene Mark is on a Mac, it's a bit harder to get to these private rooms on those new-fangled machines: ) LindsayGS Well, I for one needed some updating on the tool - Mark said he fixed SetRelTempo and he'd send it to me. While we're waiting..Tim sent me 2 Mac MIDI files and I was able to translate one of them into SL - the other had a funny header, but it looks like we'll be able to go Mac MIDI --> SL ELECTMUSIC Bruce have you encountered any problems with Lindsay's program in converting files? AFA Bruce Not yet Greg. I've done about twenty conversions so far. The only thing I noticed was that I tried converting a Standard Midi File direct and MM didn't accept it. After converting it to MTPro and then back, it converted the file with no problem. LindsayGS Bruce - what's stnd MIDI file direct mean - from what source? ELECTMUSIC Ok, that seems to agree with Tim's problem. LindsayGS Tim's file was from a Mac - I imported into MTJr, exported and then it worked. AFA Bruce Lindsay, I took downloaded Tim's version of "The Snowman" which was a Standard MIDI file in the AMS library. I tried to do a direct conversion to SL using MM and it gave me nothing but zeros for the file. I used Pro to create a file, then save it back to standard and MM accepted it with no problem. ELECTMUSIC I always convert directly from MTPro for my own files and NEVER had any problem. LindsayGS Right - that's from a Mac (he said) ELECTMUSIC I think we are all talking about the same file then... :) LindsayGS I still need to know why MT imported it and MM wouldn't (will look at file) AFA Bruce Lindsay, I didn't mention it only because I wanted to look at it further and make sure I hadn't made an error first. M Cecys Hello , I made it, I looked under the "people" menu. LindsayGS Mark - we're all here to talk about probs with SynthLab, & tool 35 ...also the latest from Apple. M Cecys Computers... what a pain! LindsayGS Mark - can you tell us what's happening with updates to SL & tool 35? Nuzz Mark, what can you tell us about release dates for SL M Cecys Release dates..I don't have anything specific... the target keeps moving. But the latest, it got moved up which is good. LindsayGS What about newer versions? AFL JoyceM Mark, I did talk with Tim Swihart...and he's waiting to hear from APDA. LindsayGS Can we talk about bugs & fixes tonight? M Cecys I've been waiting for APDA since April. LindsayGS You mentioned about the fix for SetRelTempo (midisynth reads tempo changes in pseudo midi code) M Cecys Lindsay, the bug is fixed (I hope) LindsayGS Great - Nuzz Will there be another Beta version released M Cecys It's going on APDA real sooon (!!!) and on the developer's CD. Nuzz And talking about bugs, I talked to last week about a _LoadOneTool_ problem, anything with that? M Cecys Nuzz, I get the same crash problem, havn't fixed it yet. LindsayGS Mark - One of the things some of us noticed with this vers of sl was tempos & vols that change during a song don't always reset to the params at the beginning (they start over like the end of the song, not the beginning) Nuzz Lindsay, that can be corrected by Setting the volume *before* the seq is played LindsayGS Nuzz - vols & tempos change WHILE the song is playing - does setting something in SL fix that? M Cecys Nuzz is right, MS has no memory, you should reset everything before playing a seq. LindsayGS But does SL do it? Nuzz You must issue a MidiMessage to set the volume (I'm not smart, Mark told me how :))) M Cecys SL resets everything before starting a seq. LindsayGS So - the reason why it wasn't resetting is that the tempo track was off.....I understand, now..(maybe not about vols) M Cecys Set volume with MIDIMessage and tempo with SetTempo. The volumes are set with a MIDI Controler 7 command. LindsayGS Mark - you haven't gotten the conversion program yet, but the converted MIDI file has trk 1 with the tempo stuff in it..and I was turning it off because of the setRelTempo bug. You guys are telling me how to code it, but I'm talking about doing it in SL I understand the problem, Thanks. ELECTMUSIC Mark... question about the wavebanks. How do you see the necessary wavebanks being released for the new MIDI tool? M Cecys EM, what do you mean? ELECTMUSIC Well, since only you have the means for creating them, how do you see them being released so others can use them, ie.. with the initial release of SynthLab? M Cecys They were created for that reason (for you). So you're free to use them. ELECTMUSIC Will you be releasing more wavebank files? M Cecys That's possiple (more waves), can't promise. Nuzz I've been thinking about writing a wave editor that would let you cut and paste wave from 1 file to create another. AFL JoyceM Will it be possible in the future for a novice to create wavebanks? ELECTMUSIC Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the Synth Wavebank from version .3 is different from Synth Wavebank from the current version M Cecys EM - I'm not sure about that. ELECTMUSIC I am concerned about two different wavebank files with the SAME name it will create havoc with the playing of files, but I guess this is to be expected when working in the beta arena :) Nuzz Greg. You are talking about instrument files, not wave files. You cannot currently modify a wave file. ELECTMUSIC Not sure Mike...maybe I am confusing the two. I should have checked it before tonight. M Cecys One thing we need is a PATCH LIBRARIAN to move waves. AFL JoyceM Agree, Mark Nuzz Can someone explain "Patch Librarian" ELECTMUSIC Mike, it's a program that allows the storage of instrument voice data. M Cecys One important point to remember is that MS is a SYNTHESIZER... MANY unique instruments can be created by re-using the same waves... ELECTMUSIC I would like to see the librarian upgraded to patch "editor". Nuzz Is that what I explained to you earlier Greg? ELECTMUSIC Yes. the copy and paste feature would be a useful tool expanding into the editor possibilities LindsayGS Nuzz - were you talking about moving waves or instruments? I was talking once about moving instruments between banks (adding this to my utility program) Nuzz Lindsay, yes moving waves from file to file, and adding support for digitized (GS) sound files to be used for waves ELECTMUSIC Mark, as an example.. if I wanted to use the harp sound from one wavebank file with the drums from the combo wavebank file... would that be possible? M Cecys Yes, that is the advantage of a synthesizer. LindsayGS I guess it's easy to move instrs around that use the same waves, but not so if they use different waves? M Cecys Lindsay, that is what the Patch Lib would do. Match instruments with waves before moving them. LindsayGS right... ELECTMUSIC But Synthlab at its current level of development can't move between different wavebanks, right? Nuzz Right Lindsay, the correct (new) wave number would have to put in the Instrumnt file ELECTMUSIC I think we got it! :) ( to borrow a phrase from Henry Higgens in My Fair Lady) AFA Bruce <> M Cecys It would first check it that wave is already moved. LindsayGS I hope someone's logging these pearls of wisdom. M Cecys Remember, many instruments can share the same wave. LindsayGS Right - a whole bank of 'em. Nuzz I was thinking more of creating NEW wave files, instead of modifying existing ones M Cecys Nuzz, to do that, you need a WAVE Editor. Nuzz THat was what I was thinking of writing, Mark :) ELECTMUSIC Mark.. how long did it take you to create those wavebanks? AFL JoyceM So now we need a Wave Editor and Librarian for SynthLab. :) M Cecys Creating waves does take some time. Right now I don't have the right tools. Nuzz Which tools do you mean? AFL JoyceM Then how did you make the waves for SLab, Mark? Nuzz (digitizer, and digitized sound editor)? M Cecys The main thing would be an wave editor.. right now, I have to do a lot of manual work. I sample the waves on my Mirage, use a program on the Mac called Alchemy to clean up and resample the waves, then I convert the waves to source code, add the header to it and finaly assemble them to Wave Files. A real pain in the @!!!! It would be nice if we could do all this with one program on the GS. AFL JoyceM Mark, the log of this chat, can I release it now, or should I wait until after SL is released. I know the public would be interested. M Cecys SL has been publicly talked and demo'd for quite some time. I don't see any problem with releasing this. AFL JoyceM Thanks, Mark. I will send you a copy of it also. Nuzz Are the waves sampled at Middle C or is there some other magic ingredient involved? And, is there some equation around to convert to/from a Frequency rate used by FFStartSound? M Cecys The key to waves is to make them small as possible but keep the quality good so they are sampled at various rates and then correctly tuned by the Tuning parameters. That is why I use Alchemy, because I can experiment with different sampling rates with it's "resampling" feature. AFL JoyceM Dumb question coming...but what is Alchemy? M Cecys Alchemy is a Wave Editor for the Mac. Nuzz Now I know what you mean about not having the right tools on the GS M Cecys I wish I did. ELECTMUSIC Mark, I guess you see the development of a wave editor from third party sources? AFL JoyceM Well we have some good programmers here tonight,so I am sure we will see a good wave editor...soon? Mark, what do you foresee for the future of SynthLab (MIDISynth)? M Cecys Midi Synth will be a system tool, so it depends on what developers do with it. SynthLAB is a demo instrument editor and there will probably not be much support for it. AFL JoyceM Do you have a prediction? Does anyone? LindsayGS I'm afraid that's as easy to answer as the future of the GS! ELECTMUSIC Can you give us any ideas on how other seeded developers are viewing the future of the midi synth tool? Nuzz If I was into hardware, I would love to bundle a Digitizer and Wave editor, etc. AFL JoyceM Mike, what about the Audio Animator as the digitizer? LindsayGS It would be enough to know if any of the major developers are interested (MS) Nuzz Sure, that would do. Any digitizer would do ELECTMUSIC Is Applied Engineering even considering this tool? AFL JoyceM One of the items I am getting from this chat is we now need an Editor..and soon!!! ELECTMUSIC I don't know Joyce... I am hoping there is enough developers excited as much as we are about the possibilities the new tool offers. Nuzz It wouldn't be that difficult to write an app that allowed you to create new wave files using the ones that already exist. M Cecys You're right, to fully take advantage of the great GS sound, we need to reach a critical mass. Nuzz The hard part would be to create new waves themselves. AFL JoyceM Right, Mike and Mark...hopefully the desire will be so strong that someone will develop a wave editor and allow one to creat new waves!!! ELECTMUSIC Mark, from the inside of Apple.. are they planning to release some PR to the music world (not just the Apple II world) about the incredible potential of this tool (Inside of Apple... "core") M Cecys EM, I hope so. LindsayGS I blew away our local dealers with SL..they said they just use their GS to play Mean18!! AFA Bruce Greg, the music world has basically viewed the GS as an "unsupported" computer. It's gonna take a lot of PR to get anyone out there to listen. ELECTMUSIC Is there some possiblity that the Apple Records Lawsuit might prevent that? AFA Bruce The music trades rarely even mention Apple // music programs nowadays. AFL JoyceM Sad, but true, Bruce :( But...BUT, we all know better :) LindsayGS I managed to get a press release into EM (about A2GS music) ELECTMUSIC Agreed Bruce, I also think it might have to do with the GS target market of home and education. believe me when I tell you educators are STILL very interested in the GS! AFA Bruce In 87-88, the companies were giving up on the GS because of Apple Corps unwillingness to release info necessary for the software. AFL JoyceM Mark, what is the current version of MS beta? M Cecys We're at 1.3. AFL JoyceM Okay...do you all have any more questions for Mark? It is getting late for you Easteners :) LindsayGS Yeah - Mark, we didn't intend to have you as the guest - I guess it just worked out that way! - thanks for all the info.. :) AFA Bruce Well, thanks to all. I picked up some good stuff tonight. :) ELECTMUSIC I don't at this time... just a comment. Thanks for breathing some real energy into the GS and also thanks for helping us out tonight. AFA Bruce I second that.... :) Nuzz Yes, I second that. Thanks for your support Mark AFL JoyceM Mark, really appreciate you stopping by tonight...most helpful. M Cecys Thanks AFL JoyceM Mark, do you have any comments you would like to make? M Cecys Joyce, not realy, thanks for having me here tonite. AFL JoyceM We appreciate it...and believe this was a positive discussion. Thanks. America Online - 1990