Subject: Re: And now, from the author of the DOS Disk post, a post that actually relates to this newsgroup.
Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
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Date: 18 Nov 1999 07:18:55 GMT
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Message-ID: <19991118021855.11754.00000556@ng-fp1.aol.com>



CUTblakeney@home.com (Jeff Blakeney) wrote:

>supertimer@aol.com (Supertimer) wrote:
>
>>I always appreciate the developers, but they are only part
>>of the equation.  Jeff, that thanks in part goes to us plain
>>old users who help new users out right here on csa2, you
>>know.
>>
>>I don't know about you, but I do not draw an artificial line
>>between developers and users.
>
>Well, there is a line between developers and users.  If there wasn't,
>there wouldn't be different terms used to describe them.  :-)

Sure, but I meant the line of importance.  Developers
and users are equally important.  Users are the
customers of developers.

>We need developers to produce new products otherwise we will continue
>to lose users and without those users, there won't be anyone left to
>help.  If it wasn't for products like Marinetti, Spectrum Internet
>Suite, GSoft BASIC and many others that were produced in the past few
>years, I'm sure there would be even less Apple II users today.  I can
>imagine that my taking so long with my e-mail program has probably
>lost a few more users who might have stuck around a little longer if
>my e-mail program had been done a year ago.

Developer is a term used loosely.  What is a developer?
Is Max Jones a developer?  I consider him to be even
though he is not technically one since he does not
design hardware or write software.  However, as a
writer, he helps users discover how to use the great
Apple IIGS.  He "develops" the user base so to speak.

But if a writer/publisher of a newsletter is a developer,
then what is the many users of the user group that
is csa2?  If I write an article about playing MP3 music
on csa2, I've contributed data to the Apple II cause
just like Max Jones does.  Does that make me a
developer?

Or how about the user who writes a GSoft or Applesoft
or HyperCard or HyperStudio or Tutor Tech program or
stack and releases it?  Is that user a developer?

The line is not so easily drawn.

>Yes, users helping users is a good thing but when a user comes across
>a problem never before encountered with a program that was just
>released, the only real place to get any answers is from the
>developer.  Even if it is a known problem, a user giving advice on how
>to fix it can sometimes slip up and give a partially or totally
>incorrect answer.  The best answers to questions about certain
>products will always come from the developer.

Not always the case.  Developers do not always have
the resouces to test their products on a wide range
of hardware.  In these cases, it is up to the users to
report how the developer's product interacts with
hardware that the user does not have.

For example, when I was helping a RamFAST user
set up MUG!, Peter Watson (the developer), myself,
and the RamFAST user had a three way email
discussion trying to figure it out.  Peter and I both
have Apple High Speed SCSI cards, so he didn't
know exactly how to get MUG! working with the
RamFAST card.  In the end, I think Peter added
some data about how MUG! worked with another
SCSI card to his MUG! development knowledge.
And let's not forget the fact that Joe Kohn was first
informed that his Harmonie drivers work with some
Epson Stylus models right here on csa2.

The developer made the product so obviously the
developer has a lot of knowledge of the product.
The users, however, see how the product works
with their own hardware.  Hardware that the
developer does not always have.  Hardware that
not even the beta test team always has.  So I
submit to you, developers and users are both
sources of information about products.

>That is why in my post I said "Yes, comp.sys.apple2 does help to
>support our beloved hardware and its older software."  Older being the
>key term there.

It also helps support new hardware.  It also helps
inform new users of NEW hardware and software
by informing them that there ARE still developers.
Some developers seem to ignore the fact that
csa2 does good.  They seem to do this even though
both you and I know that we've both got some new
users who wander into csa2 directed to the
developers which in turn were able to sell software
and hardware to more customers.

Happily, developers are more and more nodding
agreement that csa2 does often help them sell
their products.  Mike Westerfield is a regular here.
Joe Kohn has expressed in a post in another
thread that he's always glad for the plug (I think
he said this specifically to one reader, but it was
posted through csa2).  Peter Watson and I
interacted first on csa2 and then through email
regarding MUG! and I continue to plug this great
product that I find so useful.  Alltech has sold
quite a few Focus drives and many Sirius cards
because of publicity users continue to spread
about them on csa2.

Csa2 does good.  For new and old hardware and
software alike.

>However, I'd still love to see developers give themselves more
>coverage but that is their own decision and I can understand some of
>the reasons they avoid this newsgroup so I respect that decision and
>try to direct users to them instead of trying to direct them to more
>users.  :-)

I think I know what you are talking about and I do
agree that developers have reason to be a bit
cautious.  It was the polarization that happened
when Nathan Mates and his enemies battled it
out.  Because of the "war" of a few, everyone was
polarized.

I do not know if you agree, Jeff, but I've said this
many times.  Most csa2 users support developers.
But developers are not deities and users are not
just supposed to blindly worship them.  I respect
Mike Westerfield, Joe Kohn, Peter Watson, Bev
Cadieux, and many other developers because of
a shared enthusiasm to the computer that binds
all users and developers of this platform together,
the Apple II (specifically GS for me).  I appreciate
their products.

But supporting good developers is not the same
as blindly supporting all of them.  If a developer
attacks all his customers, he is going to lose
customers.

That's one thing that Nathan never grasped.  You
do not treat your potential customers badly. Yes,
the Apple II is a small platform now.  Yes, we
need all the developers we can.  BUT, that does
not entitle Nathan to do what he did, attack all
the users he saw on csa2.  When he did that
to me, I simply stopped using his stuff.  Even his
freely available stuff like GUPP.

Developers deserve respect for what they do but
there should not be a line between users and
developers that entitles a developer to act like
a rogue.  Of course I'm against any user who acts
that way too.

Say I was one of the few meat eaters left.  Say
the only two restaurants left that served burgers
were McDonalds and Burger King.  Say everyone
else served only veggie foods.  Would I appreciate
these two restaurants?  Yes.  If a customer in
one of these restaurants acts like a rouge and
starts attacking the restaurant, should he be
comdemned and removed?  Yes.  BUT does the
actions of one customer in say McDonalds entitle
McDonalds to punish ALL its customers?  No.
And if McDonalds tried to do that with me there,
I'd leave and go to Burger King.  And yes, if
Burger King acted like that too, I'd become a
vegetarian, but I'd bet Burger King would NOT act
like that and as long as they don't, I'd support
Burger King (even if I refuse to support
McDonalds).

>>How about teaching a course on csa2?
>
>The Apple II University is a Syndicomm thing that is run on Syndicomm
>managed forums.  I don't think I can arrange an Apple II University
>course in a usenet newsgroup.
>
>However, that doesn't mean someone else can't do so without using the
>Apple II University name.  :-)

Cool!  How about posting some potential outlines
of potential courses here?  Thanks!