Subject: Re: A time for action...
Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cturley2@aol.com (Cturley2)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
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Date: 27 Jul 2000 23:10:40 GMT
References: <3980831A.68FA4F6E@swbell.net>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <20000727191040.27583.00001209@ng-fi1.aol.com>




Roy and/or Janet Miller wrote:
> 
 ....
> 
> What we care about is that newbies know that some sites have copyrighted
> software available for download, and that they be made aware of that fact.
> After that, what they do is really their own business isn't it?
>

Rubywand wrote in reply:

<<Virtually every piece of software on every site (except that in the
public domain) is copyrighted. Informing someone that software on a site is
"copyrighted" merely states the obvious and would be a silly activity.

The truth is that you invent laws which do not exist and seek to convince new
users that they are engaging in illegal actions.>> 

I can't argue with that and I won't either!!!


> We also care to see copyrighted software made into freeware, so anyone
> can use these software works of art.

Personally, I'd like to see it made public domain so others could take it up to
expand and improve and/or use it for any need.  Sharewares can be revoked from
that status at will by the copyright owner and made commercial in status again
- public domain can not!

Still a reclassification to freeware or even shareware from the stagnant 
state of commercial classification for the old A2 titles no longer offered for
commercial sales from their owners and/or distributors is the next best thing
that could be done with them all - IMHO!


And Rubywand continued with this comment:

<<In that case, you should be especially grateful to Tom Turley, since he's
one of the few persons getting anything done with reclassifying software.>> 

Thanks Jeff...but, actually I've got less than a dozen such reclassifications
to my credit so far.  I'm working on 1000's more but,
as of now - no reply has been received with anything on granting any
reclassification to freeware status with the A2 old commercial titles.

Howard Katz and 'The Lost Classics Project' has a very good track record
with reclassifications from commercial to freeware for many A2 titles,
certainly more than I current can claim.

I do have a very nice surprise for the A2 community with a great A2 collection
that I have been able to get reclassified to public domain.  I'll make the
announcement on that when I have the written verification to offer solid proof
to all doubters on this - some time in August.


> Further, a few weeks ago, a legal argument was made, citing case law, 
> as to how, if you own a machine, using the firmware isn't a violation of
> copyright law. Ruby knows about and has ignored that post - it 
> undermines his wish to paint "vogons" as hypocrites.

Roy...I hate to burst your bubble on the above - but "vogons are hypocrites.
That's a verified fact.  Check out HHGTTG for proof on it.   Thus, if you
acknowledge that you are in fact a "vogon' then you are also a hypocrite.

With respect to the issue over the ROM - unless the ROM rights owner 
has given consent for the free distribution and proof can be given on such when
requested - then the ROM is not being distributed within the legal
rights it's protected under.

As to distributing ANY Apple II related ROM image online from any site
or sending it by email external attachments to anybody for noncommercial needs
and use - I see nothing wrong with doing it - even if it is termed as not being
legal.  Just as I have on many occasions jaywalked
when I see it is safe for me to do (and will continue to do so) - I have no
moral or ethical problems with making ANY Apple II ROM available to any Apple
II user for noncommercial needs or desires.

Let those that want to label me as a pirate for such views - go for it!

 ....

Rubywand next comments:

<<Missed that posting. Evidently, it was by someone whose messages
generally get ignored due to a long history of posting garbage (which inclines
one to suspect that the citing you mention is just more of the same).

If you actually believe that the supposed instance of case law supports
your position, you are welcome to post it along with a link which will permit
validating its authenticity.

Until then, there is no reason to believe that ownership of a machine
gives one the right to transfer the ROM code for use on another, entirely
different computer.

Nor do we have any reason to believe that sending users to a site you say
is a "pirate site" to download the ROM code makes sense, _unless_ the
expectation is that many (if not most) of your users do not own a IIgs and the
belief is that offering the ROM code for download is a copyright violation.>>

In such a case and certainly IMHO it is a copyright violation - but, of such a
nature that the likelihood of anybody doing anything about it with any type of
a civil legal action is so remote that the odds exceed winning
the California Super-Mega Lotto.   Like I said above - I have no moral or
ethical problems with such distribution if it promotes the use of Apple II
emulation or is for the noncommercial needs and desires of A2 users and
hobbyist.   Where somebody to offer a CD or the file of a ROM image by any
manner for sale commercially  or for use with any commercial product - without
full consent and authorization by the ROM owner - then I would consider it a
copyright violation that deserved criminal and/or civil action taken.   

What I've said above may seem to be hypocrisy of itself :)  But, I will try to
clear that up by simply saying I condone the distribution of any A2 ROM image
for any noncommercial effort. I do not condone the distribution of any A2 ROM
image for any commercial effort in such a method. 

And, in conclusion Rubywand states:
     
<<In short, we see obvious double-dealing and hypocrisy.>>

I fully agree in EVERY respect on that!  This exist in nearly anything you look
at carefully enough though - today it seems, if you lok at it deeply enough . 
:(   I guess it's a flaw in our human nature we are all guilty of in one way or
another from time to time.  So many of us will often justify doing this or that
- as being OK!

But,  then we will rant and rave or even flame another for doing the same
general thing.  How strange and twisted it all seems!!!   I really think it all
comes down to looking at each thing done on a case-to-case basis.

Perhaps people will see me as a person who promotes anarchy.  But, I honestly
feel (with respect to all of these issues under debate in the A2 community
today) -- if it's for the general well being and good of the majority - then
it's not harming, ignoring or dishonoring anything that doesn't deserve it.

Cheers,
Tom



Rubywand