Subject: Re: Help! Apple IIc+ with no working diskettes
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From: Rubywand <rubywand@swbell.net>
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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:45:16 -0500
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Simon Biber writes ...
> 
> If you have a working null-modem then the transfer of Prodos directly should
> be feasible without needing to go the 3.3 then ADT path which requires a
> 5.25" drive.

     Yes; it should be possible to transfer ProDOS that way.

 
> The problem is that I don't know of any dump files of Prodos... As I
> understand it, Prodos occupies the area from C000 to FFFF, which needs to be
> accessed through bank-switching because that is the ROM area. Is that right?
> 
 ....

     Gary Little tells about memory used by "ProDOS-8" (ProDOS + BASIC.system)
in his book 'Exploring Apple GS/OS and ProDOS 8'.  On a 64k or larger Apple II,
the system ends up occupying most of the Language Card RAM plus $9A00-$BFFF at
the top of the 48k of regular RAM. Plus, $9600-$99FF is used as a file buffer.

     Just ProDOS can be started up on a 48k (no Language Card) Apple II-- it
occupies roughly the area DOS 3.3 would. But, ProDOS with no .system file
interface is not very useful.


     There are several reasons ProDOS is not available for transfer like DOS
3.3. One way or another, they boil down to the fact that DOS 3.3 can easily
duplicate itself and create bootable diskettes whereas ProDOS can not:


1- Even if you transfer and install both PRODOS and BASIC.SYSTEM in RAM, you
still do not have a way to create a bootable ProDOS disk. (For one thing, you
do not have the actual PRODOS and BASIC.SYSTEM files.)


2- PRODOS plus any .system file would have to be transferred along with code to
move/install ProDOS and the .system file. Someone would have to create the
move/install code; or, the user would need directions for doing the moves and
setting up pointers and variables.  


3- Most likely, you would need at least two fairly large 300 baud transfers to
get started:
 
First, you would need PRODOS plus a util.system to create ProDOS disks-- for
instance, you could transfer util.system from a ProDOS version of Copy II Plus.

Then, after formatting a few ProDOS diskettes, you could transfer/install
PRODOS plus a telecom .system program (or, with the ProDOS you transferred
earlier still in memory, transfer/install the new .system telecom program).

The telecom program could be used to transfer non-compressed copies of PRODOS,
BASIC.SYSTEM, and util programs to diskette. (Viola!)


4- It's so much easier to transfer DOS 3.3, transfer ADT, and, then (via ADT)
just transfer .dsk images which can boot ProDOS and run whatever ProDOS
utilities you want.


     Naturally, a package dedicated to from-scratch transfer and installation
of ProDOS with some telecom transfer utility on 3.5" disk could simplify the
process. The catch is that someone would need to be motivated to create the
package.



Rubywand